Petition US tax court or simply refuse?

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by scottinalaska

quote:"They notified you and you still failed to respond properly (by becoming counterclaimant, not plaintiff)."

By "properly" you mean not the response or NONresponse the IRS desired, yes?

Right. They are railroading you into two responses or being non-responsive. 1) file in tax court 2) sign and acknowledge you owe the debt, (that you have received the notice, and 3) make no response and your signature is presumed. The Postal Service completed its task, you were notified. You need not STOP and sign every STOP sign.

quote:"When that happens run down there and get a copy of the the backside before they send it back to the IRS (within two weeks or so). You will find the citation in the LoR attached above:"

So I get a copy. Now I am smarter and onto their game. But aside from not desiring to see it go that far, what the heck can I do with it now? Keep it as my evidence of their missteps in procedure(no court order) if or when it goes to court?

The alternative is to file a counterclaim in admiralty on the 90-Day Notice and that will open an evidence repository. You will have a common law judgment against the IRS agent in about a month (21 Days per the summons). When the IRS files the Notice of Lien immediately Refuse it for Cause and put a certified copy of the R4C into the case jacket in the "exclusive original cognizance" of the United States.

They will send the Notice of Lien to bankers, employers and brokers. You can prepare for the accounts you have control of but the employer is the tough one. Especially if your employer is SSA benefits. Albeit only administrative process the agent will threaten your employer and garnishment begins.

Otherwise I am hopeful somebody else can be more helpful. I am simply suggesting the proper way to do it considering the proper character/status of the parties.

OR, do I respond with the libel of Review BEFORE anything possibly gets filed.
I have spent many hours conditionally accepting these letters for the past few years and now I discover that rabbit hole wasn't the right one to be going down!

thanks,
scott

You are welcome. I am sorry that the LoR and R4C is not more widely recognized in lieu of judicial review. Yet...

The angle I am proposing is that you file in the Article III judiciary on Manhattan Island and see if things go your way.


Regards,

David Merrill.

[PANICPASS]

Originally Posted by scottinalaska

quote:"They notified you and you still failed to respond properly (by becoming counterclaimant, not plaintiff)."

By "properly" you mean not the response or NONresponse the IRS desired, yes?

quote:"When that happens run down there and get a copy of the the backside before they send it back to the IRS (within two weeks or so). You will find the citation in the LoR attached above:"

So I get a copy. Now I am smarter and onto their game. But aside from not desiring to see it go that far, what the heck can I do with it now? Keep it as my evidence of their missteps in procedure(no court order) if or when it goes to court?
OR, do I respond with the libel of Review BEFORE anything possibly gets filed.
I have spent many hours conditionally accepting these letters for the past few years and now I discover that rabbit hole wasn't the right one to be going down!
thanks,
scott

The county recorder is not going to give you a copy of the backside of the Notice of Lien. You will have to do a public records request (State FOIA).

You should request (1) a copy of the recorder's procedures for recording liens and; (2) a copy of the lien documents IRS transmits electronically to them for recording and; (3) a copy of the information the recorder sends back to the IRS!


A FOIA request to IRS revealed the following info:


The federal lien documents are sent to the Secretary of State or County Recorder by eletronic transmission. They send back this copy to the IRS with their information [WHAT INFORMATION?] The IRS inputs the information from Part I onto the Automatic Lien System (ALS) and the Form gets shredded. [SHREDDED??] No other parts are maintained by the Service. Enclosed please find the Facsimile Federal Tax Lien Documents.

[David Merrill]

It does not surprise me that things are electronic. That was ten years ago that I got the backside from the county clerk. However all the clerks are different so check locally.

[PANICPASS]

When that happens run down there and get a copy of the the backside before they send it back to the IRS (within two weeks or so). You will find the citation in the LoR attached above:

Quote:
"Place for filing notice; form. Place for filing. The notice referred to in subsection (a) shall be filed -- with the clerk of the district court. In the office of the clerk of the United States district court for the judicial district in which the property subject to the lien is situated..." Title 26 U.S.C. §6323.


The Notice of Lien I have dosen't have that language on the backside, or the frontside. The backside has two columns of information regarding (1) Administrative rights (2) When the Lien can be released and; (3) When a Lien against Property can be Removed. One column is in English and the other is in Spanish. There's nothing there about "Place for Filing Notice".

Are you saying that the county recorder gets different copy of the backside from the IRS than you?

[scottinalaska]

So I get a new envelope that I have never gotten before from the UNITED STATES TAX COURT. Yikes, if that doesn't scare a person! But let me bring us all up to speed here.
I did write back to both Ogden and CC'ed the tax court regarding the form 3219 and telling them,
"You are railroading me into two responses or being non-responsive. 1) Petition the tax court 2) sign the waiver to permit you to assess me, or 3) make no response and my signature is presumed.
Let me make this clear - I do not wish to petition the Tax Court. I do not wish to sign the waiver. This entire correspondence is Refused for Cause and a Libel of Review will be in order as well."
The above correspondence along with a page worth of other items I sent via Registered mail with self cancelled stamps etc.
And for the FIRST time, "someone" in taxland wrote me back!
So with trembling hands I open up the packet. By the way, I have until January 31 before my 90 days "to petition the tax court" is up. This new envelope contains only three pages.
The first page is titled
UNITED STATES TAX COURT, Washington DC 20217 at top. Then, in legal fashion of a court docket, it shows my wife, petitioner, v. COMMISSIONER OF INTERNAL REVENUE, respondent. It even has a docket number.
BUT here is the kicker and I will copy this verbatim, same page:
ORDER
The Court filed on January 17, 2006 a document as the petition of the above-named petitioner as the docket number indicated. That docket number MUST appear on all documents and papers subsequently sent to the Court for filing or otherwise. The document did not comply with the Rules of the Court as to the form and content of a proper petition. The filing fee was not paid. Accordingly, it is
[line break]
ORDERED that on or before March 6, 2006, petitioner shall file a proper amended petition on the form enclosed and pay the filing fee of $60.00....If an amended petition and filing fee are not received on or before March 6, 2006, the case will be dismissed or other action taken as the Court deems appropriate.

[unreadable copied signature]
Chief Judge

Dated: Washington DC, January 19, 2006

The second page is a fill in the blank petition template(how nice).
And the third page is Designation of Place for Trial (how about Puerto Rico?)
Also is a small pamphlet to assist me and other helpful hints.

Now fair weather and stormy weather friends, what do we make of this?
Shall I write again to tell them I am NOT petitioning and roundfile that docket number? Or...?
Thanks!
scottinalaska

this was NOT sent certified by the way, just regular mail with 87 cents postage. Her name in Upper and Lower case letters proper.

[idknow]

wow,

hey, can you scan the "signature" for all to see?

[scottinalaska]

And I included the message too for your reading pleasure.
Idknow, do you think you might recognize the signature? It has a nice flourish to it!
scottinalaska

REGISTERED MAIL

Ask what specie you are ordered to pay in.

[Libertarian]

do you think you might recognize the signature? It has a nice flourish to it!

According to the Tax Court's website, the Chief Judge is Joel Gerber. That appears to be what the signature says.

[scottinalaska]

HB,
As a matter of fact, there are some instructions on how to make out checks(for the filing fee) and how they will be presented at the window for an immediate electronic transfer from my bank. BUT no mention on specie of money.
No bill was included in this Court correspondence either, just in my proposed owing that started all this. But come to think of it, of all the questions I have ever sent the vIpeRS, all unanswered of course, I have never asked that question.
Well, one more question to add to the list.
I wonder if I could be daring enough to compose a response such as, "I am happy to pay what you think I owe so that your books could be balanced, but I need to know what specie of money you accept that would be consistent with the Constitution that would indeed pay this alleged debt and not simply discharge it...."
I may not be right on here, but open to clarification.
scottinalaska