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  #11  
Old 10-06-2006, 07:14 AM
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BOBT12 BOBT12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idknow

so why cant people volunteer to file and just send a donation?
Because the issue is about control. In other words, you can volunteer to be an IRS slave. However, the government will try to beat you into submitting, if you try to donate according to your free will.
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It is dangerous to be right when your government is wrong. -Voltaire

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Last edited by BOBT12 : 10-06-2006 at 07:16 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2006, 08:28 AM
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Well looks like we've forgotten the "S". the 1040 signature block says signed under penalties of perjury.
Why is this important to remember? Because they are asking you to swear that the form and the information you put on the form are correct.
Perhaps someone from the IRS can explain why they want the people to swear that the 1040 form is correct?
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2006, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
The jurat (the signature block) on the IRS forms about signing under penalty of perjury was designed to be a convenience to the taxpayer. Even if he's alone and in a remote place, by signing the form he has complied with the law that requires tax returns to be signed under oath. The alternative -- that is, without that provision for "under penalty of perjury" -- is that every taxpayer would have to get in line somewhere, maybe burning up work time to do it, and have his signature witnessed by some govt employee, as is done with passport applications. Considering that most adults are taxpayers, and this would happen every year, this would be an unspeakable waste of time and energy.

A corollary is that the IRS won't accept a tax form where the jurat has been altered. And it will prosecute for false statements on tax forms.

I don't know what visions you get that has you making this stuff up Shoonra. The application for a USA Passport is a good example that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

http://travel.state.gov/pdf/DS-0011.pdf

Take a look at the last page and there's the under penalty of perjury clause. Now, can you just mail in that application form? No!

Instead of wasting time defending your post, perhaps you could be more circumspect and provide specific examples instead of blanket (erroneous) statements in them from the beginning.
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  #14  
Old 10-06-2006, 11:33 AM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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I know plenty about passports. If you pay attention, there's a block under the jurat on the passport application where the official witness (a Dept of State clerk or a Post Office clerk) reports seeing not only the signature but, perhaps more important, describes the identification evidence presented at the time of signing by the applicant.
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2006, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
I know plenty about passports. If you pay attention, there's a block under the jurat on the passport application where the official witness (a Dept of State clerk or a Post Office clerk) reports seeing not only the signature but, perhaps more important, describes the identification evidence presented at the time of signing by the applicant.

I already did pay attention. You should heed your own words.

To reiterate, why not give specific examples instead of a blanket statement as you previously did.

Perhaps more important? LOL - Either it is or isn't.

Your original post still has more of an appearance of opinion than of fact.
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  #16  
Old 10-06-2006, 12:44 PM
HenryBowman
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
A corollary is that the IRS won't accept a tax form where the jurat has been altered. And it will prosecute for false statements on tax forms.

Therefore, **** the IRS, and don't ever sign one of their forms. (Yes, I feel that strongly about it.)

If you don't sign a form, you don't have a problem.
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  #17  
Old 10-06-2006, 12:54 PM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryBowman
Therefore, **** the IRS, and don't ever sign one of their forms. (Yes, I feel that strongly about it.)

If you don't sign a form, you don't have a problem.

If you don't submit valid forms the IRS may well give you a fairly big problem some years down the road. Yeah, I know of some people who didn't file for years at a time and died before the IRS acted. I also know of some people who did likewise and died in prison. Not the gamble most people would want to take.
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  #18  
Old 10-06-2006, 01:14 PM
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please correct me if I am wrong

If you are a US citizen (whatever that is) and reside in a state you would sign the 1040 form under penalty of perjury using the jurat from section 1746 which is allready on there for you.

And to answer idknows' question: If you are in one of the states of the united states of America you would have to alter the jurat to read like the sec. 1746 (1) reads in the first post.

One is a compulsory tax the other is a donation. And they cannot complain that you didn't donate enough this year..because they would be lucky they got anything.

I know someone whos' wife has been doing this w/ no problems.

There exists no obligation to do the impossible
The truth shall set you free
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"IMPOSSIBILIUM NULLA OBLIGATIO EST"
Dubuque rei potissinia pars prineipium est
Ad recte docendum oportet, primum inquirere nomina, quia rerum cognitio a nominibusrerum dependet. Co. Litt. 68.
Qui sentit commodum, sentire debet et onus. Bouvier's Maxims of Law (1856)
Extra territorium just dicenti non paretur impune. 10 Co. 77; Dig. 2. 1. 20; Story, Confl. Laws section 539; Broom, Max. 100, 101. Cujusque rei potissima pars principium est
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  #19  
Old 10-06-2006, 01:18 PM
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BOBT12 BOBT12 is offline
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Don't Sign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryBowman
Therefore, **** the IRS, and don't ever sign one of their forms. (Yes, I feel that strongly about it.)

If you don't sign a form, you don't have a problem.
I agree! I DO NOT FILE THE FORM!
__________________
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson

It is dangerous to be right when your government is wrong. -Voltaire

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  #20  
Old 10-06-2006, 01:40 PM
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2501 2501 is offline
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proof [1942] p1

Here is why it is called a tax return



I decided to give it
another shot and put this on www.atgpress.com for all to see again and
fall back to sleep, as did the previous generation. The below was at
the end of Billie's find and she deserves the credit.


"DECLASSIFIED"

"WITHHOLDING.TAX,

HEARING BEFORE A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, UNITED
STATES SENATE" and "LEGISLATIVE HISTORY OF THE CURRENT TAX PAYMENT ACT
OF 1943"


These two documents are a very small part of her many findings. As you
read statements, "mopping up purchasing power" and "siphoning off
purchasing power into the Treasury from a day to day", makes one take
notice how far public serpents will go to control our lives. You will
find how Social Security was used to condition people for withholding.


How it was decided to call withholding a "Victory Tax" to condition
the public for accepting the withholding tax system.


These documents have been transcribed from photo copies of micro fiche
for easier reading.


A true photo copy of the micro-fiche is available from Billie.


"An unconstitutional act is not law; it confers, no right; it imposes
no duties; affords no protection; .' it creates no office; it is in
legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been
passed."

Norton vs. Shelby County 118 US 425 p. 442



SUMMARY


OF THE WITHHOLDING TAX HEARING BEFORE A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON FINANCE

UNITED STATES SENATE
SEVENTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION ON

DATA RELATIVE TO WITHHOLDING PROVISIONS OF THE 1942 REVENUE ACT

AUGUST 21 AND 22, 1942


CONTENTS


Statement of
Friedman, Milton, Division of Tax Research, Treasury Department
Hardy, Charles 0., of Brookings Institution,
Jacobstein, Meyer, of Brookings Institution
Paul, Randolph E., Treasury Department


Overview

Because the war effort resulted in increased production and
employment, which caused a sudden large influx of money into
circulation, the Federal Government and Federal Reserve System had to
find a method of "mopping up excess purchasing power" thereby control
inflation and obtain immediate funds for the Treasury. Several plans
were put forth before the House ways and Means Committee and the
Senate Committee on Finance to accomplish this purpose.


The following points were made by the Senators and those testifying
before the committee:

1. The overall purpose was to obtain immediate money for the war
effort to control inflation and to get the income tax on a current
basis instead of being one year behind.

2. To accomplish this goal, it was recognized that a scheme was needed
to reach the largest number of people.

3. That the scheme, regardless of whether it was a "coupon," "stamp"
or "withholding of income tax at source," would constitute a "forced
loan" [page 101] to the Federal Government and it would apply to
taxpayers and nontaxpayers alike. [page 104].

4. Where an individual had money withheld and ultimately no tax
liability, the individual would file an income tax return and that
income tax return would constitute an automatic claim for refund [page
141].

5. The proposed plan was an emergency war time measure.



HEARING EXCERPTS

Beginning at Page 99


STATEMENT OF MEYER JACOB STEIN, OF BROOKINGS INSTITUTION

Mr. Jacobstein. We were called * * *.

It is obvious that it is necessary to mop up the excess
purchasing power of the community, not only because of its effect on
the price situation but because the Treasury needs the money and needs
it quickly. Obviously if the Treasury can collect from the consumers
as the purchases are made the Treasury has the use of those funds long
before it would obtain them by the income-tax method.


Now, there are many ways, of course, of mopping up this
surplus purchasing power.

* * * Page 100

Then, there is the withholding tax at the source based on pay rolls.

***

Senator Clark. Doctor, what this plan is, it is essentially a
compulsory savings plan based on sales tax methods, is it not?



Mr. .Jacobstein. I should say that is a fair description of it yes. It
is the use of a sales tax method without being a tax.



Senator Clark. So far as the impact on the public is concerned, it is
precisely the same as a sales tax, except you give the money back
sometimes.



Mr. .Jacobstein. That is right. That is a very fair statement I think.
Senator Danaher used the word "self-assessment." If I buy a dollar
necktie I pay $1.10 under his plan. '

***



* * * A withholding tax is usually withheld at the source.
Here you withhold it not at the manufacturer's end but at the
retailer's end. You are using the retailer instead of the manufacturer
to siphon off several billions of dollars, depending upon the rate of
the assessment of a tax.



Page 101



* * It may be that several systems can be used. Anyone of them might
be very useful to the Treasury in accomplishing this purpose. But...
for siphoning off purchasing power into the Treasury from day to day,
or week to week, or month to month; and it has that advantage.



Now, there is an aspect to this question which was not
brought out in the original memorandum which would make the scheme
perhaps a little more palatable if certain deductions were made by any
method either by the withholding tax method or direct sales tax method
or by Senator Danaher's proposal, . . ..



STATEMENT OF CHARLES O. HARDY, OF BROOKINGS INSTITUTION

Mr. Hardy. First,... mainly for the purpose of providing an
exemption from the tax or forced loan either one.



Now, as has been stated a moment ago, this is a forced loan * *
*. It should be pointed out, I think, that you can do the same thing
with the mechanics of any other tax, that is, under the income tax you
can give out bonds or coupons redeemable in bonds instead of giving
receipts for the income tax. You can do that, as far as I can see,
with any tax, for the whole schedule of taxes.
__________________
"IMPOSSIBILIUM NULLA OBLIGATIO EST"
Dubuque rei potissinia pars prineipium est
Ad recte docendum oportet, primum inquirere nomina, quia rerum cognitio a nominibusrerum dependet. Co. Litt. 68.
Qui sentit commodum, sentire debet et onus. Bouvier's Maxims of Law (1856)
Extra territorium just dicenti non paretur impune. 10 Co. 77; Dig. 2. 1. 20; Story, Confl. Laws section 539; Broom, Max. 100, 101. Cujusque rei potissima pars principium est
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