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Old 07-04-2007, 11:45 PM
FBIman
 
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Can you issue your own DL ???

OK this is a odd question, could I issue myself a DL legally, im in Kansas and this is a couple of the statues i found, I beleive I could but no cop would ever beleive it.

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?

8-1417. "Driver's license" defined. "Driver's license" means any license to operate a motor vehicle issued under the laws of this state.

History: L. 1974, ch. 33, § 8-1417; July 1.


8-235. Licenses required; city license, when; appeal from denial of license; vehicles registered under temporary permit; penalty; motorized bicycle driver's license. (a) No person, except those expressly exempted, shall drive any motor vehicle upon a highway in this state unless such person has a valid driver's license. No person shall receive a driver's license unless and until such person surrenders or with the approval of the division, lists to the division all valid licenses in such person's possession issued to such person by any other jurisdiction. All surrendered licenses or the information listed on foreign licenses shall be returned by the division to the issuing department, together with information that the licensee is now licensed in a new jurisdiction. No person shall be permitted to have more than one valid license at any time.

(b) Any person licensed under the motor vehicle drivers' license act may exercise the privilege granted upon all streets and highways in this state and shall not be required to obtain any other license to exercise such privilege by any local authority. Nothing herein shall prevent cities from requiring licenses of persons who drive taxicabs or municipally franchised transit systems for hire upon city streets, to protect the public from drivers whose character or habits make them unfit to transport the public. If a license is denied, the applicant may appeal such decision to the district court of the county in which such city is located by filing within 10 days after such denial, a notice of appeal with the clerk of the district court and by filing a copy of such notice with the city clerk of the involved city. The city clerk shall certify a copy of such decision of the city governing body to the clerk of the district court and the matter shall be docketed as any other cause and the applicant shall be granted a trial of such person's character and habits. The matter shall be heard by the court de novo in accordance with the code of civil procedure. The cost of such appeal shall be assessed in such manner as the court may direct.

(c) Any person operating in this state a motor vehicle, except a motorcycle, which is registered in this state other than under a temporary thirty-day permit shall be the holder of a driver's license which is classified for the operation of such motor vehicle, and any person operating in this state a motorcycle which is registered in this state shall be the holder of a class M driver's license, except that any person operating in this state a motorcycle which is registered under a temporary thirty-day permit shall be the holder of a driver's license for any class of motor vehicles.

(d) No person shall drive any motorized bicycle upon a highway of this state unless: (1) Such person has a valid driver's license which entitles the licensee to drive a motor vehicle in any class or classes; (2) such person is at least 15 years of age and has passed the written and visual examinations required for obtaining a class C driver's license, in which case the division shall issue to such person a class C license which clearly indicates such license is valid only for the operation of motorized bicycles; or (3) such person has had their driving privileges suspended and has made application to the division for the issuance of a class C license for the operation of motorized bicycles, in accordance with paragraph (2), in which case the division shall issue to such person a class C license which clearly indicates such license is valid only for the operation of motorized bicycles.

(e) Violation of this section shall constitute a class B misdemeanor.

History: L. 1937, ch. 73, § 2; L. 1949, ch. 104, § 2; L. 1959, ch. 49, § 2; L. 1961, ch. 52, § 1; L. 1969, ch. 51, § 1; L. 1975, ch. 36, § 5; L. 1976, ch. 42, § 2; L. 1977, ch. 28, § 3; L. 1987, ch. 45, § 1; L. 1989, ch. 38, § 20; L. 1991, ch. 36, § 5; L. 1993, ch. 154, § 2; L. 2000, ch. 179, § 7; July 1.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:20 AM
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:46 PM
farmer_giles_of_ham farmer_giles_of_ham is offline
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Thanks for asking this question since this is on my mind, too.

I am not sure what you especially see in the statute quoted (let us know!), but the laws are the same everywhere- residents drive under domestic state law, and foreigners ("nonresidents") under the statutory exemption clause as regulated by international law (treaty on road traffic).

Keep in mind that driving is a flag activity- we drive under the law our state of residence for such purpose (we may reside for other purpose in 2 or more states). DL comes from declared residence status, one flag per visit, please (according to the statutes).

The state grants that foreign drivers (and vehicles) may "operate", or whatever, on the public roads if they meet all the due requirements of the home state. So if it's legal in your state, it's legal in 'this' state.

I would argue that everyone is resident somewhere somehow- it's an attribute of legal personality, to which everyone is entitled under intl law (UN treaty) parties thereto including the all of the U.S.A.

All persons by definition have a 'res-identity' ie- a flag of status. Otherwise I am not a person, and the statutes don't apply to me anyway. Only persons are subject and can sue or be sued.

(in ancient and slave societies foreigners and chattels often had no redress in courts, for lack of a legal status. They also could not be sued, for the same reason. Thats one reason the legal fiction of 'persona' was developed, to cover everyone).

So the question for ocifer bakin' is: "what are the due requirements of my state of residence? Do I conform to them?"

Every cop has been trained that having a domestic DL compels the owner to produce same on demand, in driving situations. It is that very nexus, that the DL in requesition has been issued by the very same state making the demand, that creates that obligation. As a foreign driver my license is outside of that law. Stautes that compel production of a DL also include the definition, as is referenced in your legal quote, that a "driver's license means any license to operate a motor vehicle issued under the laws of this state." A foreign DL is issued under the law of another state, naturally.

Then, the kicker- the intl treaty mentioned above contemplates that its entirely possible that a driver holds a valid driving permit, under the laws of the home status, without actually being issued any driver licence instrument, or one that is useless for making any determinations.

"2. A Contracting State may however require that any driver admitted to its territory shall carry an international driving permit conforming to the model contained in annex 10, especially in the case of a driver coming from a country where a domestic driving permit is not required or where the domestic permit issued to him does not conform to the [standard] model."

For example in Europe we are all (over 14) legal to drive a motor scooter, and a light car ("smart car", like the 'mini' and only goes about 40 mph max) without formal DL. Under both intl law and all U.S. laws we can do that in Kansas or where-ever as well, under the same conditions, because we drive under the legality of the home state. If it's legal in my state then it's legal in this state, as far as vehicles and driving go.

Many countries de facto or de jure do not require a DL. Lets hear 'ocifer talksalot' tell us all about the requirements in Laos, or Belize.

So first of all I don't need to carry anything in particular to justify my DL- no law could ever set a consistent standard for all foreign states. I do have to meet the age minimum, and be competent- that's presumed to be required everywhere. (it's not a 'license to kill').

What is my state of residence? How about a PRIVATE FREEHOLD? Any competent witness want to attempt a rebuttal in court? Or claim any violation of my own due requirements?

It also demolishes the arguement that "a DL is for public safety", since ANYONE, with the right status, from ANYWHERE (cannibals etc) can legally drive in America. And since the system is so open anyway that could be ammo for the arguement that the official objective of public safety can be achieved with less onerous means.

The law already gives the cops the authority to conduct roadside driving tests, for sobriety, physical health (sight, etc), knowledge of traffic laws etc. So if there is a reason to suspect incompetence then test me, I can parallel park pretty good...but then that's rarely the issue, of course.

Now, as to the part quoted above, from the treaty, the so-called 'requirement to carry an IDP, especially when...' (no domestic-issued instrument required, for example), we have the esteemed opinion of the Idaho Dept, available at

http://itd.idaho.gov/dmv/driverservi...onalpermit.htm

"Foreign Drivers in Idaho
... Visitors must carry the foreign driver license and, in addition, it is suggested that visitors carry an International Driving Permit issued by officials in their country of residence. It is not mandatory that visitors have the International Driving Permit; it is merely a suggestion to aid law enforcement officials and others who need to know the actual content of the license. The International Driving Permit is a translation of the foreign license into the nine official languages of the United Nations, including English.

Since an International Driving Permit is not a driver license, merely a translation of the foreign driver license, it does not authorize any driving privileges. You may not drive in Idaho carrying just an International Driving Permit."
------------------------------------------------------

So we can drive without ANY 'domestic drivers permit', ie- a drivers card, legally. And we dont need any IDP either, since it's just a helpful suggestion.

We CAN use it, that's another story, to provide identity for a ticket or accident report. I could easily do one up on the spot, write my info in the presence of the 'state employee' which makes it legal, since this act is subject to criminal penalty for 'false information' .

(whatever that is, information is by definition secondary to first-hand knowledge, and therefore lacks any true/false aspect ab initio. I cant commit perjury with mere information. Convictions are not supposed to issue on only 'information' As far as I can tell 'false information' means 'impersonating another', since thats the only way an identity could be false, if it was someone elses. Some states punish giving an 'assumed identity', but only if this is done with 'criminal intent', to 'evade liability'.)

All the same concepts apply to registration, plates, insurance, etc.

Last edited by farmer_giles_of_ham : 07-05-2007 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:36 PM
deacon deacon is offline
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Check out the magic land of definitions. That is where the real secrets lie. In your Idaho statutes, look up "vehicle" and "driver". And the ever popular "person".
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Old 07-08-2007, 12:32 PM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmer_giles_of_ham
Every cop has been trained that having a domestic DL compels the owner to produce same on demand, in driving situations.

Not exactly. The laws of every state require that motorists carry their DL while driving and present it when stopped by a traffic cop. Not presenting a DL -- a real one, not a homebrew joke -- suggests to the cop that (1) you are not fit to operate a vehicle on the highway and/or (2) you are some sort of fugitive concealing his identity. Either way the rest of your day may be out of your hands because he's not supposed to let you drive away if he's not satisfied that you are qualified to operate a vehicle, and he may want to verify your identity to make sure you're not one of America's Most Wanted.

But, hey, that's just my opinion. You do it your way and see what happens.
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
Either way the rest of your day may be out of your hands because he's not supposed to let you drive away if he's not satisfied that you are qualified to operate a vehicle, and he may want to verify your identity to make sure you're not one of America's Most Wanted.

But, hey, that's just my opinion. You do it your way and see what happens.

That's a bit of an exaggeration Shoonra. I'm quite sure you're aware there's a time limit on how long someone may be detained.
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
Either way the rest of your day may be out of your hands because he's not supposed to let you drive away if he's not satisfied that you are qualified to operate a vehicle, and he may want to verify your identity to make sure you're not one of America's Most Wanted.

But, hey, that's just my opinion. You do it your way and see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeFromContract
That's a bit of an exaggeration Shoonra. I'm quite sure you're aware there's a time limit on how long someone may be detained.
This "He" that has been referenced here may want to have a look at
County of Riverside vs. Mcglaughlin
Before this "He" decides to "take the rest of your day away from you" by detaining or arresting you without warrant.


But, hey, that's just my opinion. You do it your way and see what happens.
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Old 07-08-2007, 03:08 PM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rentiap
County of Riverside vs. Mcglaughlin

I presume that you meant County of Riverside [Calif.] v. McLaughlin (1991) 500 US 44, 114 L.Ed.2d 49, 111 S.Ct 1661, in which the Supreme Court upheld an arraignment procedure deadline of 36 hours following arrest. I just said the rest of the day, maybe I should have said the next day and a half.

Last edited by Shoonra : 07-08-2007 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:08 PM
farmer_giles_of_ham farmer_giles_of_ham is offline
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If the only issues are

1/ competent to operate a motor vehicle

2/ possible outstanding warrants

Then we are in good shape. We all run the risk of 'concerned officers' about our wanted status, whenever, wherever, in many situations. It's a seperate matter and we do what we can. In theory, they need at least a reasonable suspicion. People get detained all the time. And people are released all the time. That's America in 2007.

As for operating, like I said before, test me as per applicable police power, much of which is codified. Show understanding of traffic signals and rules? No problem. Sobriety test? Thats nothing unusual. Whatever it reasonablely takes, if 'ocifer questionmark' has even bothered to test the situation. I submit that this is rarely the issue, whether one is properly qualified to use an automobile machine.

The real issue is legal status qualification to drive- am I 'permitted'? Otherwise even if I can prove physical actual competence I am still in violation of the statute, which requires a valid permit. The question is- what is a valid permit.

Guess what? The statutes in every state provide exactly for a homebrew, with or without a sense of humor. They all go something like "driver shall write name address and birthdate in presence of officer" Intl convention modifies birthdate to "age on date of issue". I would go with current age, less arguments about when exactly. Supreme Court ruling exists specifically excluding birthdate from required identity info.

BTW Infractions/Summary Offenses/low grade misdemeanors etc of Vehicle Code are specifically excluded from the definition of a "crime", in every law code. So where is the probable cause to arrest? Which is the first step before any arraignment. Arraigned on what charge?

I have been through this before myself, out in the world, more than once, and though the cops tend to make a big show of ruffled feathers it's just roadside business- as fellow forum poster Merrill says, be courteous.

Why is this important? I would rather deal with lightweight vehicle code offenses than ANYTHING related to REAL ID or anything else, where an altered or damaged card can mean up to 20 years in jail.

Can you spell C-O-N-C-E-N-T-R-A-T-I-O-N C-A-M-P?

Last edited by farmer_giles_of_ham : 07-08-2007 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:11 PM
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FreeFromContract FreeFromContract is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
I presume that you meant County of Riverside [Calif.] v. McLaughlin (1991) 500 US 44, 114 L.Ed.2d 49, 111 S.Ct 1661, in which the Supreme Court upheld an arraignment procedure deadline of 36 hours following arrest. I just said the rest of the day, maybe I should have said the next and a half.
Oh Shoonra, sometimes you really are too silly. You said nothing of arrest in the post I responded to and neither did I. Apparently you're don't understand the point; you can not be held without charges. I recall reading a court decision about a year ago that such a stop can not be more than an hour...perhaps even less. In any event, considerably less than either of your statements.
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Last edited by FreeFromContract : 07-08-2007 at 07:17 PM.
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