
08-06-2007, 05:55 PM
|
|
Banned User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 87
|
|
I do not see what on the form linked to here, would make my car a motor vehicle. Could you please tell me which part it makes my vehicle a motor vehicle or if it is general could you please explain the construction?
Nowhere in this Application For Registration is anything about a "vehicle" being thereafter a "motor vehicle". No where.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg343.pdf
I am trying my best to understand however when I look at the forms and the codes, I do not see anything that shows that mere application for registration makes my vehicle a motor vehicle.
Last edited by DCLXVI : 08-06-2007 at 07:24 PM.
|

08-06-2007, 07:31 PM
|
|
Banned User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 87
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gldskr
A natural person may designate himself to be a fictional entity if he so chooses.
|
Where is this designation made when I register my automobile?
It would seem that if I were the one designating, then the designation would have to be a result of one of my actions. Which action designates me as a "fictional entity"? Is the application for registration? Is it the paying for registration? Is it some other activity?
Can you please show in law where this activity is made also into a designation?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gldskr
Yes because you have determined it to be so. A certificate of title is prerequisite to the registration though.
A certificate of title is required before registration? Is that to say I can get a certificate of title on my "vehicle" before it becomes a "motor vehicle"?
|
[/quote]
The application form seems to disagree with you at first as it is titled verbatim
"APPLICATION FOR TITLE OR REGISTRATION"
It seems that despite the "or" the document is used in a manner consistent with "and". One application is filed to receive both registration and certificate of title. Also you will not get title. You will get certificate of title.
Thank you again.
: )
Last edited by DCLXVI : 08-07-2007 at 06:54 PM.
|

08-06-2007, 07:51 PM
|
|
Banned User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 87
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by gldskr
Are they the same thing and in what instance does the state issue a certificate of ownership?
gldskr
|
No, they are not the same. That is why they have different names. Look to the rule of "Idem Sonas" to explain the converse logic. The converse logic is explained.
As to the extent that a certificate of registration does not establish ownership:
Quote:
Besides, the certificate of registration does not conclusively establish true ownership of the vehicle. (Davis v. Joseph, 148 Cal.App.2d 899 [307 P.2d 958].) The registration requirements protect innocent purchasers and afford identification of vehicles and persons responsible for accidents and injuries. (Henry v. General Forming, Ltd., 33 Cal.2d 223, [200 P.2d 785]; Dorsey v. Barba, 38 Cal.2d 350 [240 P.2d 604.])...
(emphasis added) Kipp v. Cozens (1974), 40 Cal.App.3d 709, 717, 115 Cal.Rptr. 423.
|
So it is not the certificate of registration.
Quote:
West's Ann.Cal.Veh. Code (2003)
4450. Certificate of ownership and registration card
The department upon registering a vehicle shall issue a certificate of ownership to the legal owner and a registration card to the owner, or both to the owner if there is no legal owner of the vehicle.
|
As to the certificate of title there is not mentioned in the vehicle code itself. At this point I have to look at other sources of law and legal history to help me understand what a "certificate of title" is. First let me present some evidence as to what a "certificate" is. The following should explain a certificate as mere evidence of existence of document and not of the actual document.
Quote:
West's Ann.Cal.Ins. Code (2003)
384. Certificate or verification of insurance of insurance; statement
(a) A certificate of insurance or verification of insurance provided as evidence of insurance in lieu of an actual copy of the insurance policy shall contain the following statements or words to the effect of:
This certificate of verification of insurance is not an insurance policy and does not amend, extend or alter the coverage afforded by the policies listed herein.
|
Next in the queue is:
Quote:
West's Ann.Cal.Com. Code (2003)
9102. Definitions and index of definitions
(a) In this division:
. . .
(10) "Certificate of title" means a certificate of title with respect to which a statute provides for the security interest in question to be indicated on the certificate as a condition or result of the security interest's obtaining priority over the rights of a lien creditor with respect to the collateral.
|
Last edited by DCLXVI : 08-06-2007 at 08:13 PM.
|

08-06-2007, 11:01 PM
|
|
Banned User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 87
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by gldskr
Ejusdem generis - Of the same kind, class or nature. In the construction of laws, wills and other instruments, the "ejusdem generis rule" is, that where general words follow an enumeration of persons or things, by words of a particular and specific meaning, such general words are not to be construed in their widest extent, but are to be held as applying only to persons or things of the same general kind or class as those specifically mentioned. U.S. v. LaBrecque, D.C.N.J., 419 F.Supp. 430,432.
|
You misunderstand this rule of law's application. It is to apply to general terms. What makes you think that "natural person" is a general term. This rule as far as I can tell has always meant to be applied to general terms such as "And other places" or "Or like objects" or "And other persons".
Never was it meant to mean that all things in a list must be classified the same. If color included "Blue, light blue, dark blue, and orange," we would not say that since orange in paired with shades of blue that it must be construed as a shade of blue. That is just non-sense.
|

08-07-2007, 07:06 PM
|
|
Banned User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 87
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by gldskr
No, the vehicle is a vehicle up until the point it is registered. Application for Registration is the same as listing for taxation. Vehicles are not required to be registered, only motor vehicles. The state could just as easily tax your vehicle as personal property, they choose not to. They prefer the "self assessment " method.
|
If the state is merely recording the information so as to protect the "Legal Owner", then why do they not return the Title to the "Owner" after the information has been entered?
Why do they wait for the registration in another state or cancellation of the registration before returning bonds?
Quote:
5600. (a) No transfer of the title or any interest in or to a
vehicle registered under this code shall pass, and any attempted
transfer shall not be effective, until the parties thereto have
fulfilled either of the following requirements:
(1) The transferor has made proper endorsement and delivery of the
certificate of ownership to the transferee as provided in this code
and the transferee has delivered to the department or has placed the
certificate in the United States mail addressed to the department
when and as required under this code with the proper transfer fee,
together with the amount required to be paid under Part 1 (commencing
with Section 6001), Division 2 of the Revenue and Taxation Code with
respect to the use by the transferee of the vehicle, and thereby
makes application for a transfer of registration except as otherwise
provided in Sections 5905, 5906, 5907, and 5908.
(2) The transferor has delivered to the department or has placed
in the United States mail addressed to the department the appropriate
documents for the registration or transfer of registration of the
vehicle pursuant to the sale or transfer except as provided in
Section 5602.
(b) Whenever a person transfers ownership of a vehicle and is
required to disclose the mileage of the vehicle, the department may
prescribe a secured form to be used for purposes of the odometer
mileage disclosure requirements pursuant to subsection (a) of Section
32705 of Title 49 of the United States Code.
|
Quote:
It is well settled that a bill of lading represents the property for which it has been given, and by its endorsement or by delivery without indorsement the property in the goods may be transfered, when such is the intent with which the indorsement of delivery is made. It was so determined in Lickbarrow v. Mason, [an English case] decided by the House of Lords in 1793. (See 1 Smith's Lead. Cas., 1058; see also Merchants' Bank v. Union R. R. and Transportation Co., 69 N. Y. 376; City Bank v. Rome, etc. R. Co. 44 id., 136; Holmes v. German Security Bank, 87 P. St. 525: Emery's Sons v. Irving National Bank, 25 Ohio St., 366; Civil Code, sections 2126, 2127, 2128, 2129, 2130, 2131, 2132.)
In the last case cited the law is thus stated: "By the rules of commercial law, bills of lading are regarded as symbols of the property therein described, and the delivery of such bill by one having an interest in or a right to control the property is equivalent to a delivery of the property itself. A consignor who has reserved the jus disponendi may effectuate a sale or pledge of the property consigned by delivery of the bill of sale to the purchaser or pledgee, as completely as if the property were in fact delivered." (25 Ohio St. 366.)
In the case cited from 69 N. Y. it is said: "Bills of lading are choses in action, and no rule is better established than that instruments of this character may be transfered for a valuable consideration by delivery only." (69 N. Y. 379.)...
The indorsee for value of a bill of lading which has been delivered to him may bring an action in his own name for the goods, though he can not generally bring an action on that instrument in his own name. (Thompson v. Dominy, 14 M. & W. 402; Dows v. Cobb, 12 Barb. 316; Blanchard v. Page, 8 Gray, 298.)
Dodge v. Meyer (1882), 61 Cal. 405, 416-417.
|
|

08-07-2007, 09:54 PM
|
|
Banned User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 87
|
|
IT should be evident from above that the type of car being registered is the same type of car as is described in section 32705 of Title 49 of the United States Code.
Here is the type of car and circumstances requiring an odometer verification.
Quote:
TITLE 49 > SUBTITLE VI > PART C > CHAPTER 327 > § 32705
§ 32705. Disclosure requirements on transfer of motor vehicles
(a)
(1) Disclosure Requirements.— Under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Transportation that include the way in which information is disclosed and retained under this section, a person transferring ownership of a motor vehicle shall give the transferee the following written disclosure:
(A) Disclosure of the cumulative mileage registered on the odometer.
(B) Disclosure that the actual mileage is unknown, if the transferor knows that the odometer reading is different from the number of miles the vehicle has actually traveled.
(2) A person transferring ownership of a motor vehicle may not violate a regulation prescribed under this section or give a false statement to the transferee in making the disclosure required by such a regulation.
(3) A person acquiring a motor vehicle for resale may not accept a written disclosure under this section unless it is complete.
(4)
(A) This subsection shall apply to all transfers of motor vehicles (unless otherwise exempted by the Secretary by regulation), except in the case of transfers of new motor vehicles from a vehicle manufacturer jointly to a dealer and a person engaged in the business of renting or leasing vehicles for a period of 30 days or less.
(B) For purposes of subparagraph (A), the term “new motor vehicle” means any motor vehicle driven with no more than the limited use necessary in moving, transporting, or road testing such vehicle prior to delivery from the vehicle manufacturer to a dealer, but in no event shall the odometer reading of such vehicle exceed 300 miles.
(5) The Secretary may exempt such classes or categories of vehicles as the Secretary deems appropriate from these requirements. Until such time as the Secretary amends or modifies the regulations set forth in 49 CFR 580.6, such regulations shall have full force and effect.
|
We will see below that a motor vehicle must be "manufactured" and it must be manufactured for "use" on a highway and that the activity of "use" must be its "primary" function [Rather than say, "pleasure" or "enjoyment"].
Quote:
TITLE 49 > SUBTITLE VI > PART C > CHAPTER 321 > § 32101
§ 32101. Definitions
In this part (except chapter 329 and except as provided in section 33101)—
...
(7) “motor vehicle” means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.
...
(10) “passenger motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle with motive power designed to carry not more than 12 individuals, but does not include—
(A) a motorcycle; or
(B) a truck not designed primarily to carry its operator or passengers.
|
Is there a difference between "motive" power and "mechanical" power.
Thanks,
: )
|

08-07-2007, 10:09 PM
|
|
Banned User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 87
|
|
As to the action of use:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by http://www.citizenlaw.com/pdf/u.pdf
Use [verb] "To employ, to apply to one's service, to occupy."
|
|

08-08-2007, 10:54 PM
|
|
Practice Makes Perfect
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: georgia state
Posts: 449
|
|
|
you may have a hard time arguing that you are not occupying the private vehicle that you are freely travelling along the common way in...
__________________
Blowing down the house of cards, one puff at a time.
|

08-08-2007, 10:58 PM
|
|
Banned User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 87
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ThomPaine
you may have a hard time arguing that you are not occupying the private vehicle that you are freely travelling along the common way in...
|
Nope. Got the word "occupation" already defeated with case law on the 602(L) PC trespassing charge. If there is more than one reasonable construction then the one most favoring me wins.
However the real reason for this is in "the identical" to clause.
The states almost never have the identical definition of motor vehicle when requiring odometer reading. Thus the requirement is void.
Last edited by DCLXVI : 08-08-2007 at 11:06 PM.
|

08-08-2007, 11:22 PM
|
|
Banned User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 87
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bouvier's
USE, civil law. A right of receiving so much of the natural profits of a thing as is necessary to daily sustenance; it differs from usufruct, which is a right not only to use but to enjoy. 1 Browne's Civ. Law, 184; Lecons Elem. du Dr. Civ. Rom. §414, 416.
USE AND OCCUPATION. When a contract has been made, either by express or implied agreement, for the use of a house or other real estate, where there was no amount of rent fixed and ascertained, the landlord can recover a reasonable rent in an action of assumpsit for use and occupation. 1 Munf. R. 407; 2 Aik. R. 252; 7 J. J. Marsh. 6; 4 Day, R. 228; 13 John. R. 240; 13 John. R. 297; 4 H. & M. 161; 15 Mass. R. 270; 2 Whart. R. 42; 10 S. & R. 251.
2. The action for use and occupation is founded not on a privity of estate, but on a privity of contract; 3 S. & R. 500; C. & N. 19; therefore it will not lie where the possession is tortious. 2 N. & M. 156; 3 S. & R. 500; 6 N. H. Rep. 298; 6 Ham. R. 371; 14 Mass. R. 95. See Arch. L. & T. 148.
|
.....................
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.1 Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 2.4.0
|
|