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Originally Posted by joseph sugarman
BobT12
I have to take issue with your blanket statement that most, if not all, traffic courts are courts not of record. A fact which you state can be confirmed by reading a state's constitution. Since you did not mention what state you live in, I cannot look at your state's constitution.
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The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
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Originally Posted by joseph sugarman
But I can comment on the constitutions of most other states I have read.
The creation of various levels of courts is usually handled in a separate title of a state's statutes, revised statutes, code, revised code or some other complitation of various public laws. Except for Supreme Courts, in some cases, the discussion of various levels of courts inferior to the Supreme Court is never in the state's constitution.
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Maybe this is sometimes the case, however, the PA constitution certainly goes into further details. In the Judiciary (Article V) there's discussion of:
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The judicial power of the Commonwealth shall be vested in a unified judicial system consisting of the Supreme Court, the Superior Court, the Commonwealth Court, courts of common pleas, community courts, municipal and traffic courts in the City of Philadelphia, such other courts as may be provided by law and justices of the peace. All courts and justices of the peace and their jurisdiction shall be in this unified judicial system.
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I have reviewed other state constitutions, which also went into great detail about the nature of their court system.
Check this for more information:
http://www.suijuris.net/forum/court/...arks#post66845
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Originally Posted by joseph sugarman
I cannot comment on your state. No state in which I have ever lived or spent enough time in to be somewhat cognizant of there courts has a separate traffic court system. The traffic court is a division of a state court or a municipal court.
It is a separate division of a municipality usually, only if the municipality is large enough to have any court of record.
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While I don't necessarily disagree, the PA Constitution always allows appeals to a court of record.
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Originally Posted by Constitution for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
Right of Appeal
Section 9.
There shall be a right of appeal in all cases to a court of record from a court not of record; and there shall also be a right of appeal from a court of record or from an administrative agency to a court of record or to an appellate court, the selection of such court to be provided by law, and there shall be such other rights of appeal as may be provided by law.
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Originally Posted by joseph sugarman
Even then there are limited instances in which all the other courts are of record, but the traffic division court is not. However it is the exception rather than the rule.
Courts of record are almost always a condition of the size of the municipality, not of the nature of the court.
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Okay.
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Originally Posted by joseph sugarman
If you consider most cities, towns or villages which might have a court system are not larger enough to have any court of record, your statement might be partially correct. But only in that context. Even these hamlets do not have traffic courts, excepts as a division of the basic court system.
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In my case,
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Originally Posted by Constitution for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
Court of Common Pleas
Section 5.There shall be one court of common pleas for each judicial district
[...]
(b)having unlimited original jurisdiction in all cases except as may otherwise be provided by law.
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Originally Posted by Black's Law Dictionary, 5th Ed.
Original Jurisdiction. Jurisdiction in the first instance. Jurisdiction to take cognizance of a cause at its inception, try it, and pass judgment upon the law and facts. Distinguished from appellate jurisdiction.
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Hence, if the court doesn't have Original, or Appellate, Jurisdiction,
it doesn't truly have the power to try the case! As a result, it seems, these courts do not need to follow formal rules. Since you may
appeal these rulings, it appears this
informal procedure isn't viewed as an infringement upon your
due process rights (not that I agree with this view, of course).
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Originally Posted by joseph sugarman
It may be your state is different. If you will identify your state, I will be happen to read the appropriate sections of its constituion and the title referencing courts.
I await your response.
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Again, I don't disagree with your statements. However, l wanted to give the Original Poster (OP) a place to start looking at the structure of their court system, since there seem to be some confusion about the structure of this system. Thus, I have found that the state's constitution is a good place to begin this sort search. All of the power for state law should flow from this document.
