Quick passport question...documentation

[macerico]

I'm going to apply for a passport using the modified DS-11 form to assert my status as a national, and I'm going to include the attachment from sdem.org.

Question. They ask for "documentation" of U.S. citizenship.

Obviously, as I'm not a U.S. citizen, I shouldn't have to worry about this, but at the same time, do I substitute proof that I was born in one of the sovereign states of the union? If I brought a copy of my birth certificate, would that not likely be twisted into saying I was a U.S. citizen?

Anyone do this for themselves and know what (if anything) I need to bring?

The application itself does not ask if you claim U.S. citizenship at any point. It does have a place for documentation, but that is to be filled out by the person accepting the form.

[Shoonra]

To obtain a passport, you must provide the documentation that shows you are entitled to one. The normal sort of documentation is proof of citizenship.

If you already appeared on a US passport, that pretty much establishes the documentation. Otherwise applicants for a first passport are expected to submit their birth certificates or naturalization certificates.

I am not saying it's impossible to get a US passport without being a citizen, because there are some exceptions, such as green card immigrants whose application for citizenship is pending, non-citizens who are enlisted in the US armed forces, etc. But if you insist on being in one of those exceptional categories - especially if your documentation shows you to be a conventional US citizen - your passport application will be kicked up and up to higher levels of authority to determine, resulting in a considerable delay in getting your passport. And you still might be told that you get it as US citizen or not at all.

[macerico]

Thanks.

Not that I'm sure what my answer is.

I'm trying to apply for a passport as an American National, and it seems that I should be able to do it, but that's why I find the whole "U.S. citizen" part confusing.

If I'm not a U.S. citizen, I should not have to document it. Period. I do have a certified copy of my birth certificate, but I don't want to give some bureaucrat the leverage to change my application to indicate U.S. citizenship when I expressly state that I am not one.

[joseph sugarman]

Unless, of course, you do not wish to do any of the work for yourself, but just have everyone else do it for your; this is what you must do.

Read the applicable sections of the applicable title/s of the United States Code to find out what the requirements are. Use only a copy of the annotated code so you read any applicable case law as well. You may discover, as well, there are treatises in law journals and compliations called law revewis such as the ALR. All of the above can be found in the law library of any law school.

When you have become throughly versed in the laws, as written, and the history; you will be able to make an informed decision on how to proceed.

[palani]

If you are not a U.S. citizen then possibly you should not be asking for a U.S. passport.

American national status is for inhabitants of American Somoa and other outlying possessions of the United States (that might include Iraq now). Check section 308 of the Immigration and Nationality Act.

The remedy for the presumption of 14th amendment citizenship is 15 STAT 247.

Presume is a word Shoonra understands well.

[macerico]

Thanks for the help.

My question revolves on IF there is a documentation requirement for a non-citizen national applying for a passport.

All the documentation from the sdem.org somehow does not address this particular question. Then again, it is possible there is no answer because it is not an issue.

From my legal training, if the requirement of X, Y and Z applies when C is TRUE, then if C is FALSE, X, Y and Z are irrelevant.

I 100% understand the requirement to submit documentation/proof of "U.S. citizenship" if you are asserting it (either by birth or naturalization), but the obvious answer would then be if you are not a "U.S. citizen" you have nothing to produce as you do not assert the claim.

sdem.org did provide an attachment to file that addresses issues of "citizenship status", issues of "domicile" and definitions applying to terms used in both the DS-11 and the attachment.

The form is intended when you are compelled to use the original DS-11 and not the modified one that corrects key terms.

I'm going to submit the attachment with my application anyhow as it ensures there is no possibility of misunderstanding my declaration of being a "national" and not a "U.S. citizen."

Indeed, I am not any of the things that Shroona asserts as options to be "eligible" to have a passport, but the law is clear that a passport is to be issued regardless of citizenship. The issue is one of allegiance. Even if you are a "U.S. citizen," if you do not meet the requirement of allegiance, you can not have a passport.

Section 212. Persons entitled to passport

No passport shall be granted or issued to or verified for any other persons than those owing allegiance, whether citizens or not, to the United States.

Why get a passport? Mostly just for the option. By land, I've been okay with just a photo ID, but that is changing, and the "alternative" passports out there are coming under fire which is understandable given the nature of terrorism.

We can't scream against the loose borders issue if we won't agree to carry documentation that we lawfully live here when we go abroad and want back in. We can scream about them trying to dupe us into admitting to something we aren't when we apply for said documentation.

[Shoonra]

Yes, you'll need documentation to establish your right to a US passport - probably more documentation than if you simply claim US citizenship. The assumption will be that, if you aren't a US citizen, then you must be the citizen of some other country and you should be getting your passport from that other country.

They don't just give passports out to anyone who asks. US passports are extremely important documents, and smugglers, fugitives, and terrorists are certainly eager for a US passport -- if not their own, most of them would gladly kill a US tourist and take his.

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

Yes, you'll need documentation to establish your right to a US passport - probably more documentation than if you simply claim US citizenship. The assumption will be that, if you aren't a US citizen, then you must be the citizen of some other country and you should be getting your passport from that other country.

They don't just give passports out to anyone who asks. US passports are extremely important documents, and smugglers, fugitives, and terrorists are certainly eager for a US passport -- if not their own, most of them would gladly kill a US tourist and take his.

Always the apologist and drama queen.

The main problem is that you are trying to get a document that is for only US citizens to use.

Once you understand that it might behoove you to understand the purpose of the passport. It is declaration of what embassy you will be running to upon your getting yourself into some kind of trouble. Therefore it is a matter of identifying yourself properly that counts - other than staying out of trouble while away anyway.

Even with a WSA passport (UN Charter Law) they are subject to the conditioning that a man or woman gets the privilege of a Name = Family Name. Since my name is David Merrill I figured it best to tell the truth. [Explanatory Notes on Page 5 tell the officials that Name actually means Family Name.]



Regards,

David Merrill.


P.S. Trying to get a passport for US citizens without being one is probably not going to work. (see attached)

[macerico]

So what are my options if I want to leave the physical united States and need something more than a photo ID to get back in?

I just got done with the robots at the post office. Where I was told the other day that I didn't need to have a birth certificate and they'd submit what I had, now they just refused.

If I produced a copy of my birth certificate, would that just automatically be used to say I'm a "U.S. citizen" anyhow?

[macerico]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

They don't just give passports out to anyone who asks. US passports are extremely important documents, and smugglers, fugitives, and terrorists are certainly eager for a US passport -- if not their own, most of them would gladly kill a US tourist and take his.

True, but a terrorist would just get forged documents and claim to be a U.S. citizen and draw as little attention to himself as possible. ;)

Ironic, no?