Quick passport question...documentation

[palani]

As to travel documents, a photo ID that has been notarized is a public document inside any of the united States. To make it a public document in any other country signatory to the 1961 Geneva convention (abolishing the requirement for legalisation of foreign public documents) an apostille issued by the secretary of state (of the state not the federal govt) costs only $5 per country.
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act...ns.text&cid=41

I made three pedestrian crossings to Mexico earlier this year on my ID. No checkin at all on the Mexico side and Border Patrol talked to me for a minute or so each time coming back. One of them even informed me that U.S. citizens would require passports to return in 2008. I simply nodded and agreed with him that they would.

If I were going to a country not signatory to the 1961 Geneva Convention or to one that had tangled relations with the U.S. I believe I would send my travel documents to their embassy first to see whether a visa or special permission were required first. Seems prudent. As to going to the U.S. embassy for assistance should the need arise, why not. The agreement between the states called the Constitution is still in effect, isn't it? If not then maybe it is time for another revolution.

[Extramural]

Without admitting anything, that is.

First, take a look at this link:

http://hamilton.usconsulate.gov/proo...s._citizenship

a full validity U.S. passport, a Certified U.S. birth certificate; or a Report of Birth Abroad (Form FS-240); or a Certificate of Citizenship or Naturalization from USCIS is proof of US citizenship.

I don't have any of the above, and I would like to know if a "Certified U.S. birth certificate" even exists.

Then, you can download a passport application, and you will notice, requirements number one and two are:

1. PROOF OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP
2. PROOF OF IDENTITY

[NOTICE: SIGNING A PASSPORT APPLICATION IS AN ADMISSION THAT YOU ARE A US citizen]

Wow, how do I prove that?

You will see in CFR "Title 8: Aliens and Nationality
PART 301—NATIONALS AND CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES AT BIRTH
Section Contents
§ 301.1 Procedures.

Authority: 8 U.S.C. 1103, 1401; 8 CFR part 2.

Source: 62 FR 39927, July 25, 1997, unless otherwise noted.
§ 301.1 Procedures.
top
(EMPHASIS ADDED)
(a) Application. (1) A person residing in the United States who desires to be documented as a United States citizen pursuant to section 301(h) of the Act may apply for a passport at a United States passport agency or may submit an application on Form N–600, Application for Certificate of Citizenship, to the Service, as provided in 8 CFR part 341. Such application shall be filed with the Service office having jurisdiction over the applicant's place of residence, or with such other Service office as the Commissioner may designate. It must be accompanied by the fee specified in 8 CFR 103.7(b)(1). The application also must be accompanied by supporting documentary and other evidence essential to establish the claimed citizenship, such as birth, marriage, death, and divorce certificates. The applicant will be notified in writing when and where to appear before a Service officer for examination of his or her application.

(2) A person residing outside of the United States who desires to be documented as a United States citizen under section 301(h) of the Act shall make his or her claim at a United States embassy or consulate, in accordance with such regulations as may be prescribed in the Secretary of State.

(b) Oath of allegiance; issuance of certificate. Upon determination by the district director that a person is a United States citizen pursuant to section 301(h) of the Act, the person shall take the oath of allegiance, prescribed in 8 CFR part 337, before an officer of the Service designated to administer the oath of allegiance within the United States, and a certificate of citizenship shall be issued. The person shall be considered a United States citizen as of the date of his or her birth."

You seeing what I am seeing? One is not documented as a US citizen, until they apply for a passport. Notice the words emphasized above. They are all important variables of determining whether or not one may apply for a passport documenting US citizenship.

NOTICE THAT United States is NOT defined in this chapter. Look for yourself:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/cfr.p...hapter&value=1

I think a list of questions to the State Department is forthcoming.

If they cannot prove this, surely no one else can.

November 30, 2006 - U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services Director Emilio Gonzalez said, "When you raise your hand and swear allegiance to the United States, you really ought to know what you are swearing allegiance to. You ought to internalize by that time, the very values that make this country what it is, the very reason why you are raising your right hand. ... Citizenship is not test taking."

Duh.

[Extramural]

Title 22: Foreign Relations
PART 51—PASSPORTS
Subpart A—General
Browse Next

§ 51.2 Passport issued to nationals only.

(a) A United States passport shall be issued only to a national of the United States (22 U.S.C. 212).
(b) Unless authorized by the Department no person shall bear more than one valid or potentially valid U.S. passport at any one time.
[SD–165, 46 FR 2343, Jan. 9, 1981]



*************


Title 22: Foreign Relations
PART 51—PASSPORTS
Subpart C—Evidence of U.S. Citizenship or Nationality
Browse Next

§ 51.40 Burden of proof.

The applicant has the burden of proving that he or she is a national of the United States.
[66 FR 29907, June 4, 2001]







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Title 22: Foreign Relations
PART 51—PASSPORTS
Subpart A—General
Browse Previous

§ 51.9 Passport property of the U.S. Government.

A passport shall at all times remain the property of the United States and shall be returned to the Government upon demand.



[You receive a benefit of someone else's property, yes?]

[palani]

Originally Posted by Extramural

I think a list of questions to the State Department is forthcoming.

If they cannot prove this, surely no one else can.

You will receive a form letter from the Office of Policy Review and Interagency Liaison that is has plenty of additional misinformation for you to query them on.

No worries.

Enjoy.

[Extramural]

And check out the highlighted portions of the application (attached).

You are freely providing admissions that damn you.

[macerico]

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Then I stand corrected.

But please link that for us to read. I may be wrong; but I am under the impression that for the few exceptions Shoonra has listed here, US Passports are for US citizens pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment.

Regards,

David Merrill.

Thanks for your insight.

I'm using the forms from this link:

http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxe...rAPassport.htm

Both of them are called "citizens of the United States" by the courts, and the only difference is the context in which they are used. Whenever you describe your citizenship status, you should be very careful to differentiate the two on all government forms to remove any possibility of false presumption by the government in accepting your application. This is exhaustively covered in our free pamphlet "Why you are a 'national' or a 'state national' and not a 'U.S. citizen'". If you want to be safe and completely avoid all possibility of false presumption, it is best to describe yourself always as a "national" under 8 U.S.C. §1101(a)(21) but not a "citizen" under 8 U.S.C. §1401.

This is the modified application form they provide:

http://famguardian.org/TaxFreedom/Fo...1-Modified.pdf

This is the attachment they say to use if the modified application is not accepted (I was inclined to use it anyhow). They called it Form #06.006, but I found it under Form #06.007:

http://sedm.org/Forms/AvoidingFranch...Attachment.pdf

These forms hammer away the point that you are not a statutory "U.S. citizen" and that you are a "non-citizen national." I would think that this process would allow you to obtain a passport without providing conclusive evidence of being a "U.S. citizen," but perhaps their process is flawed.

I'm trying to contact someone who can answer more questions, but to contact them, you have to get on their message board, which has to be approved, so I'm still waiting to be able to get access to the forums over there.

[Extramural]

Originally Posted by macerico

These forms hammer away the point that you are not a statutory "U.S. citizen" and that you are a "non-citizen national." I would think that this process would allow you to obtain a passport without providing conclusive evidence of being a "U.S. citizen," but perhaps their process is flawed.

Uhmmm, Yeah.

TITLE 22 > CHAPTER 4 > § 212
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§ 212. Persons entitled to passport

No passport shall be granted or issued to or verified for any other persons than those owing allegiance, whether citizens or not, to the United States.




Read it and be so advised...

You can quote me on this: If you get a passport, bend over for your Uncle Sam... cause he owns you.

The issue of citizenship is irrelevent, although getting a passport seals that classification.

The real issue is: "to whom do you owe allegiance?" If you get a passport from your master, the rest, as they say, is history.

[David Merrill]

Thanks ExtraMural;



That's national not citizen.

[Extramural]

Originally Posted by David Merrill

Thanks ExtraMural;

That's national not citizen.

Yep, and that's irrelevant.

Passports are only issued to nationals, as shown above in the Code.

Either way, he's going to owe allegiance to the US.

[weishaupt1776]

Folks, pay attention to Extramural

Homeboyee is blowin' it up w/the code !!!

No Diggity . . .


Signature on ANY DS-11 or passport bolsters a rebuttable presumption of status NO MATTER HOW MANY FANCY CHRIS HANSEN DISCLAIMERS ON THERE !!

Check 8 USC 1185, to boot !