The citation for the case is U.S. v. Fox (ND Tex 1991) 766 F.Supp 569. And it didn't involve using a passport as a substitute for a DL. It involved the question of whether possession of one of those homebrew "Kingdom of Heaven" passports was a criminal offense as a "counterfeit foreign passport" (the court decided that, since the homebrew passport didn't resemble a real one and was completely ineffectual, having it was no more a criminal offense than having Monopoly money). Incidentally, Fox was a Canadian, but at the time a Canadian passport was not required to travel into the US.
Without Prejudice.
In the Fox case, it was ruled that since the passport did not purport to be a U.S. passport when it wasnt then the relevant USC statute was not violated and that 'Fox' did no wrong. Furthermore, the Court overseeing did not make hold the his passport or travel document to be invalid. Whether he was Canadian or US-ian or not is perhaps irrelvant. Truth is, he did not have any document on himself purporting to be a US-ian or Canadian. In other words, Robert d/b/a Robert Fox did no wrong. They tried to get him for pretending to be a diplomat. The US Courts even indicated something along the lines that they had no knowledge of a Kingdom of Heaven.
For all you folks thinking the United States to be a "Christian country" or even an "Israel" well...maybe think just how much of the proverbial farm that you're willing to bet on that.
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Last edited by fulltitle : 03-14-2008 at 04:27 AM.
The confusion arises from using the Passport for ID. And using it to declare yourself a US citizen. The Applications starts:
Quote:
1. PROOF OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP
a. APPLICANTS BORN IN THE UNITED STATES: Submit a previous U.S. passport or certified birth certificate. A birth certificate must include your given name and surname, date, and place of birth, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such records...
When you put your name and your family's name together like on the birth certificate, it is no longer your name. Just read the Application - it conforms to the legal definition for "Name" = Legal name.
To be a US citizen you must be declaring your name to be the legal or full name suggested on the birth certificate.
When an officer asks for my driver license, I presume he wants me to identify myself.
Would you like me to identify myself?
He is trained to repeat the question as they are instructed by attorneys.
So I pull out my Passport in a wallet marked United States of America. Without opening the leather binder I pull out a folded Certificate of Search (from the federal court) and hand that to him. I explain my name is spelled correctly on that federal court document.
The only ID purpose with a Passport is that it is your passport. I would not use it to identify myself. The purpose of my passport is to contemplate I will get into trouble while in that foreign country and for some stupid reason I want to declare which embassy I will be running to if that happens.
I prefer to simply wait for trouble to arise generally.
Regards,
David Merrill.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
It is worth noting that the fealty to the Pope, which you cited for its explicit mention of the Templar abbey in Dover, is the legal basis for the invalidation of the Magna Carta after it was sealed at Runnymede.
During discussion about the Treaty of 1213 and the Magna Charta (1215).
Fulltitle, check the attachment to see what you are saying.
From what I read, passports are not required to enter the United States, and homemade docs are sufficiently legitimate for id during travel in United States.
From what I read, passports are not required to enter the United States, and homemade docs are sufficiently legitimate for id during travel in United States.
Homemade or not, once a notary places his signature/seal on it, it becomes a public document.
Under the Hague Convention (1963?) if accompanied by an apostile from State Dept bought for a particular foreign country then the document is as valid in that country as it is in the country where it is notarized.
This holds true for Canadians too.
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Thanks, Mikah2k, for posting the complete text of the Fox decision.
It's clear that the Fox decision says nothing about passports being a substitute for a DL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikah2k
From what I read, passports are not required to enter the United States, and homemade docs are sufficiently legitimate for id during travel in United States.
It used to be the case that virtually any ID would enable a Canadian to enter the US or an American to enter Canada and come back. But times have changed; last year the State Dept wanted (real) passports for Canadians trying to enter and for US citizens trying to come back from Canada.
Homemade or not, once a notary places his signature/seal on it, it becomes a public document.
Under the Hague Convention (1963?) if accompanied by an apostile from State Dept bought for a particular foreign country then the document is as valid in that country as it is in the country where it is notarized.
This holds true for Canadians too.
Isnt a notary an officer of the court? What does a notary stamp impart onto said homemade identification documents? Does an Apostile stamp or seal do any more or less to these documents?
If homemade documents can be used to re-enter 'these united States' can they be used to enter other countries as well?
Thom
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No, a notary is not an officer of the court. Notaries appear to be a public office under the executive branch.
And the only thing a notary does is identify the person signing something, he doesn't guarantee the truth of the contents. And, no, something notarized is not automatically a public document.
Isnt a notary an officer of the court? What does a notary stamp impart onto said homemade identification documents? Does an Apostile stamp or seal do any more or less to these documents?
If homemade documents can be used to re-enter 'these united States' can they be used to enter other countries as well?
Thom
The Hague Convention is UN charter law. Combinatorial math between participating member states. So if you are going into that domain - you want a WSA Passport.
You may have noted Shoonra's, Bernard J. SUSSMAN's jab about (real) passports. The WSA Passport provides passage in many states and one can contact consulates for your visa ahead of time, and that does not obligate you to actually make a trip to that country. However, a customs officer seeing that a lot of other countries have honored your request for passage goes a long way.
When dealing with reality of passports, UN charter holds quite a bit of weight. There is virtually nobody living in international airports except maybe Tom Hanks and according to the movie he went back home. When somebody is not declaring an embassy, they are usually allowed to get back home at least.
Regards,
David Merrill.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
It is worth noting that the fealty to the Pope, which you cited for its explicit mention of the Templar abbey in Dover, is the legal basis for the invalidation of the Magna Carta after it was sealed at Runnymede.
During discussion about the Treaty of 1213 and the Magna Charta (1215).
The Hague Convention is UN charter law. Combinatorial math between participating member states. So if you are going into that domain - you want a WSA Passport.
You may have noted Shoonra's, Bernard J. SUSSMAN's jab about (real) passports. The WSA Passport provides passage in many states and one can contact consulates for your visa ahead of time, and that does not obligate you to actually make a trip to that country. However, a customs officer seeing that a lot of other countries have honored your request for passage goes a long way.
When dealing with reality of passports, UN charter holds quite a bit of weight. There is virtually nobody living in international airports except maybe Tom Hanks and according to the movie he went back home. When somebody is not declaring an embassy, they are usually allowed to get back home at least.
Regards,
David Merrill.
P.S. In theory and I suppose practicality the Apostille on your identity is adaquate for a passport. The only accounts I have of it working are prior to 9/11 though. But understand that an apostille from the Secretary of State is nothing more than assurance that the notary is a current notary and followed proper notary procedure according to state law.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
It is worth noting that the fealty to the Pope, which you cited for its explicit mention of the Templar abbey in Dover, is the legal basis for the invalidation of the Magna Carta after it was sealed at Runnymede.
During discussion about the Treaty of 1213 and the Magna Charta (1215).
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