a peace officer may not detain or arrest a person for no license

[ezrhythm]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

A mere letter, without any photo or physical description, saying that a name hasn't been found in court records, is not proof of the name of the person holding the letter.

*WORD TWISTER ALERT!

It's not a mere letter, it is a Certificate as in certified.
And if the Certificate of Search doesn't suffice for ID then why does a birth certificate that doesn't contain a photo or physical description either.

And who says you have to show proof?

AWAY FROM HERE WITH YOUR ANTI SURIS JURIS POSTS!

[amenmesse]

Originally Posted by Jerry Pitts

Yes! moishanb: I noticed, but merely thought it peculiar. It is indeed interesting how no-one is attempting to make any distinction between a 'peace officer' and a 'motor cycle cop' or a 'patrol car cop' or a 'law enforcement officer'.

Here is a case from Florida wherein the term 'peace officer' is used in an ambiguous correlation to the term 'law enforcement officer"; thus making the terms synonymous within the perspective of the court. Something still seems to be amiss in the courts analogy of the two terms.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Jerry Carlos

Edited Info: Another interesting find relative to California status of 'Peace Officer' is found here; http://www.geocities.com/tthor.geo/peaceofficer.html

Peace officers as such derive from the english common law. They were local town/city officers charged with maintaning the peace. Like in the old movies where you might see one or two "bobbies" walking thru town at night, looking for those who are disturbing the peace, aka burglaries, drunkards, prostitutors etc. If the peace officer did make an arrest he took his charge to the justice of the peace.

Law enforcement officers in distinction to peace officers enbodies a larger class of officers. Sheriffs, local peace officers, police officers, FBI agents, DEA agents, Marine police, and local zoning officers are all law enforcement, but each will have a distinct source of office authority, but the power being weilded is the same. Police Power.

Sheriffs if I'm not mistaken are extentions of the courts, peace officers derive from unincorporated towns, police officers are employees of municipal corporations-aka municipium, FBI, DEA are fed statutory office holders, and local zoning code enforcers are a specie of police officers. Each class will be exercising the police power and in some cases within a very limited subject matter jurisdiction.

Furthermore, the english system proceeds by summons/covenant, the admiralty by citation/contract.

[freebeme]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

Another provision of the California Vehicle Code:

Originally Posted by Calif. Veh. Code 40302

40302. Whenever any person is arrested for any violation of this code, not declared to be a felony, the arrested person shall be taken without unnecessary delay before a magistrate within the county in which the offense charged is alleged to have been committed and who has jurisdiction of the offense and is nearest or most accessible with reference to the place where the arrest is made in any of the following cases:
(a) When the person arrested fails to present his driver's license or other satisfactory evidence of his identity for examination.
(b) When the person arrested refuses to give his written promise to appear in court.
(c) When the person arrested demands an immediate appearance before a magistrate.
(d) When the person arrested is charged with violating Section 23152.

Shoonra, could you please tell me what the phrase:

"Not withstanding any other provision of law means?"

Does that mean "That in spite of what any other law says..."

It does mean that. As to the phrase that one still must obey licensing laws, I agree. One must obey every law. It is just that when the license law does not apply to you then obeying that law becomes rather easy.

Shoonra, Could you also please explain to me why that one public offense is the only code/statute in the entire California Vehicle Code that is given that kind of special exemption from arrest?

I believe that the the reason no one can be arrested solely on belief that one is driving without a license, means that there must be something more... Like a suspicion that one is also a "public utility".

Please answer what the phrase "notwithstanding any other law.

I noticed that you think the word "belief" is used in contradistinction to probable cause. One cannot even be detained by a peace officer for that that one reason alone. Nor arrested.

The general rule of law is that one cannot be arrested without probable cause. Why make it a point to specify that for this law? Because you are misconstruing the text.

[freebeme]

The peace officer thing works like this:

The Highway Patrol is a peace officer for purposes of enforcing divisions 10 and 11 of the Vehicle code.

Those sections however are all civil in nature and can only be enforced as such. The power of peace officer does not extend to license checks, equipment checks, and such. There is no power of a peace officer unless enforcing the "traffic laws".

The traffic laws are division 10 and 11.

2409. All members of the California Highway Patrol have the powers
of a peace officer as provided in Section 830.2 of the Penal Code.

830.2. The following persons are peace officers whose authority
extends to any place in the state:
(a) Any member of the Department of the California Highway Patrol
including those members designated under subdivision (a) of Section
2250.1 of the Vehicle Code, provided that the primary duty of the
peace officer is the enforcement of any law relating to the use or
operation of vehicles upon the highways, or laws pertaining to the
provision of police services for the protection of state officers,
state properties, and the occupants of state properties, or both, as
set forth in the Vehicle Code and Government Code.

DIVISION 10. ACCIDENTS AND ACCIDENT REPORTS
CHAPTER 1. ACCIDENTS AND ACCIDENT REPORTS .................... 20000-20018
DIVISION 11. RULES OF THE ROAD
CHAPTER 1. OBEDIENCE TO AND EFFECT OF TRAFFIC LAWS
Article 1. Definitions ...................................... 21000-21001
Article 2. Effect of Traffic Laws ........................... 21050-21070
Article 3. Local Regulation ................................. 21100-21117
Article 4. Operation of Bicycles ............................ 21200-21212
Article 5. Operation of Motorized Scooters .................. 21220-21235
Article 5. Operation of Low-Speed Vehicles .................. 21250-21266
Article 6. Electric Personal Assistive Mobility Devices ..... 21280-21282
CHAPTER 2. TRAFFIC SIGNS, SIGNALS, AND MARKINGS
Article 1. Erection and Maintenance ......................... 21350-21376
Article 2. Official Traffic Control Devices ................. 21400-21401
Article 3. Offenses Relating to Traffic Devices ............. 21450-21468
CHAPTER 3. DRIVING, OVERTAKING, AND PASSING
Article 1. Driving on Right Side ............................ 21650-21664
Article 2. Additional Driving Rules ......................... 21700-21721
Article 3. Overtaking and Passing ........................... 21750-21759
CHAPTER 4. RIGHT-OF-WAY ...................................... 21800-21809
CHAPTER 5. PEDESTRIANS' RIGHTS AND DUTIES .................... 21949-21971
CHAPTER 6. TURNING AND STOPPING AND TURNING SIGNALS .......... 22100-22113
CHAPTER 7. SPEED LAWS
Article 1. Generally ........................................ 22348-22366
Article 2. Other Speed Laws ................................. 22400-22413
CHAPTER 8. SPECIAL STOPS REQUIRED ............................ 22450-22456
CHAPTER 9. STOPPING, STANDING, AND PARKING ................... 22500-22526
CHAPTER 10. REMOVAL OF PARKED AND ABANDONED VEHICLES
Article 1. Authority to Remove Vehicles ..................... 22650-22711
Article 2. Vehicle Disposition .............................. 22850-22856
CHAPTER 11. PARKING LOTS ..................................... 22950-22953
CHAPTER 12. PUBLIC OFFENSES
Article 1. Driving Offenses ................................. 23100-23135
Article 1.3. Offenses by Persons Under 21 Years of Age
Involving Alcohol ................................... 23136
Article 1.5. Juvenile Offenses Involving Alcohol ................. 23140
Article 1.7. Youthful Drunk Driver Visitation Program
Article 2. Offenses Involving Alcohol and Drugs ........... 23152-23229.1
Article 4. Ignition Interlock Device ........................ 23247-23249
Article 5. Alcohol and Drug Problem Assessment Program ......... 23249.50
CHAPTER 13. VEHICULAR CROSSINGS AND TOLL HIGHWAYS
Article 1. General Provisions ............................... 23250-23255
Article 2. Towing on Vehicular Crossings .................... 23270-23273
Article 3. Tolls and Other Charges .......................... 23300-23303
Article 4. Special Traffic Regulations ...................... 23330-23336

21001. The provisions of this division refer exclusively to the
operation of vehicles upon the highways, unless a different place is
specifically referred to.

[freebeme]

Originally Posted by robhalford88

You will get used to bernie/shoonra/nugget derailing interesting threads.
It appears that is what his mission in life is.
Every now and then, he does actually come up with good info, usually by accident.

The only person who derailed this thread is the one that wanted to start defining "peace officers" in the middle of it. I am glad Shoonra is taking the time to rebut on point, the validity and interpretation of the phrase and law cited. Shoonra is the only one that asked for a citation and hence Shoonra is the only one that engaged in the appropriate form of learning, despite being a skeptic.

Some people learn by questioning and not agreeing. That is Shoonra's right. I encourage Shoonra to continue to help me make my ideas stronger.

Thank you Shoonra!

Peace be with all of you.

[freebeme]

Originally Posted by Shoonra
Even where sec. 12801.5(e) prevents an officer from arresting a motorist, it is not clear that the cop is required to allow the unlicensed motorist to get back behind the wheel and drive off.

How is he going to "not allow" me to drive away if he cannot even "detain" me for driving without a license?

Will he ask nicely?

Offer me money not to?

Because if he even so much as hints at using powers of a peace officer to "require" me to stay I am going to sue his butt off in a false arrest and false imprisonment suit with a dash of abuse of process and assault while in possession of a firearm.

[robhalford88]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

Every state now has a photo of the licensee, and numerous institutions, including the police, are willing to accept DLs for identification.
A mere letter, without any photo or physical description, saying that a name hasn't been found in court records, is not proof of the name of the person holding the letter.

So you say.
Proof of your claim?

[Jerry Pitts]

Originally Posted by freebeme

The only person who derailed this thread is the one that wanted to start defining "peace officers" in the middle of it.

Peace be with all of you.

How about the one attempting to make a distinction between a 'driver' and 'operator'? Let us draw some real distinction, and require that a 'LAW' be shown where a driver license is required.

The opening paragraph of this thread was concerning the matter of a 'peace officer' as opposed to a 'law enforcement officer'. Who really created the subject matter derailment? "Peace officer" was actually a part of the discussion from the onset, along with the other issues that are obviously tied up in the twisted secular law words of art. Avoid the penalty of words of art, by reaching a distinction between what is written and what is secretly implied behind the writing and usage of words of art.

Jerry Carlos

[Lawdog]

People aren't pulled over by police on suspicion of not having a driver's license. They get pulled over for things like speeding, running a red light, suspicion of DUI, etc. It's only when the cop asks to see your license that he's going to find out whether you have one.

California law may say you can't be arrested just for not having a license, but if he has probable cause to suspect you're DUI, the cop is definitely going to arrest you. And even a non-arrestable offense still gets you a citation. And the statute doesn't say they can't tow your car. So maybe you won't be arrested, but you'll be walking home.

Every state and the District of Columbia require you to have a license to drive a car on a public street or highway. No appellate court has ever ruled that a person has a right to drive on a public street or highway without a license. Period, case closed, end of discussion.

[freebeme]

Originally Posted by Lawdog

People aren't pulled over by police on suspicion of not having a driver's license. They get pulled over for things like speeding, running a red light, suspicion of DUI, etc. It's only when the cop asks to see your license that he's going to find out whether you have one.

Is a "license plate" a license?