Traveling with out insurance?

[chapka]

Originally Posted by fulltitle

Commercial paper, no?

Yes, one definition of "conveyance" describes something which can be commercial paper. Another describes a vehicle. Dictionary.com says "conveyance" can mean "the act of transporting something from one location to another."

Which meaning is intended is clear from context. It's a pretty well established rule of statutory construction that a meaning of a word that would make the entire statute meaningless or nonsensical is unlikely to be the correct one. For example, in the context of a provision which read "...a conveyance propelled or driven other than bymuscular, gravitational or wind power," to interpret "conveyance" to be a written instrument transferring title would make the provision meaningless, because people rarely attach motors or engines to this sort of written document.

Regardless, what's your point? Where in the New York vehicle code provisions is the word "conveyance" used?

[fulltitle]

Originally Posted by B Rookard

What don't you guys understand about this ... when the word is defined in the statute, you go by the definition in the statute. You guys want to always pull out Black's (or whatever) as if some potentially different definition will trump the statutory definition. It doesn't work like that.

The word generally used is "operate" and it is usually defined in the statute. I know that Michigan's definition doesn't say anything about being engaged in commerce.

WITHOUT PREJUDICE
Looking at the Michigan Motor Vehicle Code it does appear that the Michigan code is broader with its definitions. However, it does remain true regardless of their definitions that the term 'vehicle' may still be definable as a 'conveyance employed for hire'. [Keep in mind that some state's consider a motor vehicles to be an extension of a home. Does the State of Michigan?] Indeed if its not defined in the code then perhaps Black's and/or case law is the place to look?

The word conveyance is utilized in Michigan code and its not to my knowledge defined--I could have spent more time looking. Perhaps someone else can look for it? There is a section of code that refers to births in 'moving conveyances'.

But I did a decent perusal of Michigan's motor vehicle code. Though it appears to be air-tight. A deeper analysis is telling. Also consider that the word 'vehicle' may only be referred to 'vehicles' that the state is capable of being cognizant of if that makes sense. The word vehicle still goes back to its roots. The word 'device' isnt so tame and non-commercial as it may seen.

Another consideration is that "or" can be rendered to be synonymous with "and". The words 'either' or 'neither' may be utilized to either defeat or frustrate the interpretation the word 'or' as 'and'. A glance at other parts of the Motor Vehicle code shows that the State of Michigan's legislature was careful to utilized either either or neither and therefore they probably intended that or be interpreted as 'and'. You'll have to refer to a legal dictionary [unabridge Black's for that]. However, here's a snippet from the UK "Lords Hasnard":

"Lord Peston: My Lords, will the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees explain the meaning of the word "or" used in the sentence quoted at the end of the first point, where it states, "or the eldest son"? "Or" can mean one of two things: it can mean one but not both, or it can mean "and/or". Am I right to assume that here it means "and/or", in that, where an eldest son is sitting but his sister is older, she will be able to sit on the Steps as well? That would seem to me to be an entirely correct recommendation."

***

257.13 “Driver” defined.

Sec. 13.

“Driver” means every person who drives or is in actual physical control of a vehicle.

[Gramattically the same: “Driver” means every person who drives and is in actual physical control of a vehicle.]

***

“Operator” means every person, other than a chauffeur, who is in actual physical control of a motor vehicle upon a highway.

***

From Michigan code (at 445.63):

(j) "Person" means an individual, partnership, corporation, limited liability company, association, or other legal entity.

***

“Motor vehicle” means every vehicle that is self-propelled, but for purposes of chapter 4 of this act motor vehicle does not include industrial equipment such as a forklift, a front-end loader, or other construction equipment that is not subject to registration under this act. Motor vehicle does not include an electric patrol vehicle being operated in compliance with the electric patrol vehicle act. Motor vehicle does not include an electric personal assistive mobility device.

***

257.79 “Vehicle” defined.

Sec. 79.

“Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices exclusively moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks and except, only for the purpose of titling and registration under this act, a mobile home as defined in section 2 of the mobile home commission act, Act No. 96 of the Public Acts of 1987, being section 125.2302 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

***

Dont be 'fooled'. The word 'device' in the code isn't necessarily so innocuous. Driver's licenses, license plates, state ID cards may very well be 'devices' and in particular "financial transaction devices".

***
Re: device...

257.1903 Definitions.

Sec. 3.

As used in this act:

(a) “Certificate of authority” means a certificate of authority issued under the terms of this act unless the context indicates otherwise.

(b) “Department” means the state transportation department.

(c) “For hire” means the remuneration or reward of any kind, paid or promised, either directly or indirectly.

(d) “Lessor” means a person who leases a limousine to any other person for the transportation of passengers for hire over the public highways of this state.

(e) “Limousine” means a self-propelled motor vehicle used in the carrying of passengers and the baggage of the passengers for hire upon a public highway of this state with a seating capacity of 15 passengers or less, including the driver. Limousine does not include a self-propelled motor vehicle having a seating capacity of 15 passengers or less that is used by or on behalf of an employer to transport its employees to and from their place of employment.

(f) “Limo carrier of passengers” means a person who, either directly or through any device or arrangement, holds himself or herself out to the public as willing to undertake for hire to transport by limousine from place to place over the public highways of this state persons who may choose to employ him or her for that purpose.

(g) “Motor vehicle service and repair act” means Act No. 300 of the Public Acts of 1974, being sections 257.1301 to 257.1340 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

(h) “Person” means an individual, sole proprietorship, partnership, association, corporation, or other legal entity or the lessee, trustee, or receiver of any of these entities; this state; a city, village, township, or county; the federal government; or an employee, officer, or agent of any of these units of government.

(i) “Public highway” means a highway, road, street, avenue, alley, or thoroughfare of any kind, or a bridge, tunnel, or subway used by the public.

(j) “The public” means that part or portion of the general public which the limo carrier is ready, able, willing, and equipped to serve.

(k) “Through any device or arrangement” means any and all methods, means, agreements, circumstances, operations, or subterfuges under which a person undertakes for hire to conduct, direct, control, or otherwise perform the transportation of passengers by limousine upon the public highways of this state.

***
From another piece of code (re: device):

(3) “License” means a document or a tag, stamp, plastic card, or other device that may include a stamp or a tag that authorizes the licensee to hunt, fish, trap, or possess wild animals or aquatic species and other identification required by the department.

***

474.103 Definitions.

Sec. 3.

As used in this act:

(a) “Certificate of authority” means a certificate of authority issued under the terms of this act unless the context indicates otherwise.

(b) “Department” means the state transportation department.

(c) “For hire” means for remuneration or reward of any kind, paid or promised, either directly or indirectly.

(d) “Lessor” means a person who leases a motor bus to any other person for the transportation of passengers for hire over the public highways of this state.

(e) “Motor bus” means a self-propelled motor vehicle used in the transportation of passengers and their baggage for hire upon any public highway of this state with a maximum seating capacity of 10 persons or more, or 16 persons or more if the limousine transportation act is enacted into law, including the driver. Motor bus does not include a self-propelled motor vehicle having a seating capacity of 15 passengers or less that is used by or on behalf of an employer to transport its employees to and from their place of employment.

(f) “Motor carrier of passengers” means a person who, either directly or through any device or arrangement, holds himself or herself out to the public as willing to undertake for hire to transport by motor bus from place to place over the public highways of this state persons who may choose to employ him or her for that purpose or for the purpose of transporting package express, baggage of passengers, newspapers, or United States mail in the same vehicle used to transport passengers.

(g) “Person” means an individual, sole proprietorship, partnership, association, corporation, or other legal entity, or the lessee, trustee, or receiver of any of these entities; this state; a city, village, township, or county of this state; the federal government; or an employee, officer, or agent of any of these units of government.

(h) “Public highway” means a highway, road, street, avenue, alley, or thoroughfare of any kind, or a bridge, tunnel, or subway used by the public.

(i) “The public” means that part or portion of the general public which the motor carrier is ready, able, willing, and equipped to serve.

(j) “Through any device or arrangement” means any and all methods, means, agreements, circumstances, operations, or subterfuges under which a person undertakes for hire to conduct, direct, control, or otherwise perform the transportation of passengers by motor bus service upon the public highways of this state.

[fulltitle]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Originally Posted by chapka

Yes, one definition of "conveyance" describes something which can be commercial paper. Another describes a vehicle.

Perhaps you are missing something all too obvious.

Dictionary.com says "conveyance" can mean "the act of transporting something from one location to another."

'Transporting' may just sorta-kinda imply something being done under contract and for hire.

Which meaning is intended is clear from context. It's a pretty well established rule of statutory construction that a meaning of a word that would make the entire statute meaningless or nonsensical is unlikely to be the correct one. For example, in the context of a provision which read "...a conveyance propelled or driven other than bymuscular, gravitational or wind power," to interpret "conveyance" to be a written instrument transferring title would make the provision meaningless, because people rarely attach motors or engines to this sort of written document.

Might the key be in coming to the realization that at its root the word conveyance deals with the likes of 'commercial paper' (bills of exchange, promises, certificates, affidavits, drives licenses, stamps, plates, titles, leases, transfer of rights, etc)? Might the variations (i.e. vehicle, motor vehicle) be like unto branches and/or fruit? If you truly comprehend the legalese, perhaps nothing nonsensical would be rendered? For example, consider this: "...a commercial transaction facilitated by mechinations that are propelled or driven other than by muscular, gravitational or wind power...." Or, "...a transfer of either rights or title that is facilitated by mechanitions that are propelled or driven other than by muscular, gravitational or wind power...." . Or, "...a platform capable of facilitating the transfer of either right or title that is propelled or drive other than by muscular, gravitational or wind power...." [I'm not saying those examples are precise translations but perhaps you might find them helpful in seeing the code in a different light.]

Regardless, what's your point? Where in the New York vehicle code provisions is the word "conveyance" used?

Chapka, no offense: from your reply I am convinced that you are not taking the time to break the surface if you will. If one knows less than one thinks one knows, perhaps one should consider that potentiality very humbly.

Anyways, just for fun, perhaps ponder why the construct 'motor' is utilized to modify the word 'vehicle' rather than the word 'motored'. Is it not mo-better English to say 'motored vehicle'? Do you dare suggest that fifty state legisltatures forgot to add '-ed' to the end of the word for lack of their grasp of good grammer? ;-)

**

New York Vehicles & Traffic law:

S 152. Traffic. Pedestrians, ridden or herded animals, vehicles,
bicycles, and other conveyances either singly or together while using any highway for purposes of travel.

[Giving the above adequate analysis might be quite revealing.]

S 158. Truck. Every motor vehicle designed, used, or maintained
primarily for the transportation of property.

S 125. Motor vehicles. Every vehicle operated or driven upon a public
highway which is propelled by any power other than muscular power,
except (a) electrically-driven mobility assistance devices operated or
driven by a person with a disability, (b) vehicles which run only upon
rails or tracks, (c) snowmobiles as defined in article forty-seven of
this chapter, and (d) all terrain vehicles as defined in article
forty-eight-B of this chapter. For the purposes of title four, the term
motor vehicle shall exclude fire and police vehicles other than
ambulances. For the purposes of titles four and five the term motor
vehicles shall exclude farm type tractors and all terrain type vehicles
used exclusively for agricultural purposes, or for snow plowing, other
than for hire, farm equipment, including self-propelled machines used
exclusively in growing, harvesting or handling farm produce, and
self-propelled caterpillar or crawler-type equipment while being
operated on the contract site.

S 159. Vehicle. Every device in, upon, or by which any person or
property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except
devices moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails
or tracks.

IV. The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different States in this Union, the free inhabitants of each of these States, paupers, vagabonds, and fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several States; and the people of each State shall free ingress and regress to and from any other State, and shall enjoy therein all the privileges of trade and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions, and restrictions as the inhabitants thereof respectively, provided that such restrictions shall not extend so far as to prevent the removal of property imported into any State, to any other State, of which the owner is an inhabitant; provided also that no imposition, duties or restriction shall be laid by any State, on the property of the United States, or either of them.

Thats from the Articles of Confederation. Maybe I've been holding this back eh? Notice certain things of "trade and commerce" are labeled as privileges.* What is it when its not trade and commerce?

***

use tax
n. a state tax on goods purchased in another state for use in the taxing state, to make up for local sales tax. Example: Bill Buyer, who lives in California (which has a sales tax), orders a freezer from a company in a state with no sales tax. California will attempt to charge a "use" tax equivalent to its sales tax.

use
n. the right to enjoy the benefits of real property or personal property (but primarily used in reference to real property), whether the owner of the right has ownership of title or not. Under English common law "use" of property became extremely important since title to real property could not be conveyed outside a family line due to "restraints on alienation," so "use" of the property was transferred instead. This is a simplification of the way "uses" were employed, but today it is only of academic interest.

[chapka]

A few points:

"Or" cannot mean "and." Nor does the quote you posted indicate that it can. The distinction made there is between an inclusive or ("anyone who is either a friend or a customer" can include someone who is both) and an exclusive or ("either fish or cut bait" does not allow the possibility of doing both).

The fact that "conveyance" can refer to commercial paper does not mean that it always does, any more than the fact that a "bill" can refer to certain commercial documents mean that everyone named William is in fact a commercial document. The same with "transport." Some transport is commercial; some is not. I have yet to see any evidence that it's otherwise. If a statute intended some such specific meaning, it would say so. Otherwise, the ordinary meaning of the word attaches.

Finally, no: "motored vehicle" is not more grammatically correct than "motor vehicle." "Motor" is the most commonly used form to signify that something is driven by its own power; for example, in motorcycle, motorboat, motorbike, motorcar, and even the Motor City. I've never heard anyone, ever, use the adjective "motored." If you were correct, we'd have pushedcart vendors, paddledwheel steamboats, and nucleared submarines.

[chapka]

One more:

Notice "trade and commerce" is labeled as a privilege.

No it isn't. It doesn't say "trade and commerce, which are privileges," it says "the privileges of trade and commerce." In other words, states can't give special commercial privileges (advantages) to traders in their own state and forbid them to outsiders from neighboring states.

What is it when its not trade and commerce?

This question doesn't seem to make any sense.

What is what when it's not trade and commerce?

[iamfreeru2]

Originally Posted by chapka

This question doesn't seem to make any sense.

What is what when it's not trade and commerce?

Makes sense to me. Correct me if I am wrong, but the question is, what is it (the privilege), when it is not trade and commerce?

[fulltitle]

Originally Posted by chapka

A few points:

"Or" cannot mean "and." Nor does the quote you posted indicate that it can. The distinction made there is between an inclusive or ("anyone who is either a friend or a customer" can include someone who is both) and an exclusive or ("either fish or cut bait" does not allow the possibility of doing both).

I would urge most anyone to check legal references on the matter--in particular an unabridged Black's Law Dictionary or other highly suitable reference.

I will reiterate... in reference to a festive event, if one says: "You can bring friends or relatives." Could that not mean that you can bring either: 1) only friends, 2) only relatives or 3) both friends and relatives. Indeed it does appear that 'or' can mean 'and'.



I turn attention to the previously referenced Lords Hasnard.

"Lord Peston: My Lords, will the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees explain the meaning of the word "or" used in the sentence quoted at the end of the first point, where it states, "or the eldest son"?

If the meaning of 'or' was so clear and rigid then why would such discussed in a parliamentary body full lawyers? [Are they using 'Chapka's Universal Dictionary' or something else? ;-) ]

"Or" can mean {A} one of two things: it can mean one but not both, or ....

'or' as an exclusive alternative.

...or {B} it can mean "and/or".

What is 'and/or'? Anyone?

COURT TV DEFINITIONS

LEGAL CUSTODY: In a divorce, one of two types of child custody. A parent who has legal custody has the right to be involved in all the decision making typically involved with being a parent, such as religious upbringing, education and medical decisions. Legal custody can be either sole or joint. Compare with physical custody.

Why did they include 'either'? Does it not serve to make it clear that custody cannot be sole *and* joint? But isn't it obvious that custody cant be sole and joint? Well what do ya know? They made it shockingly clear and defeated ill logic!

JOINT CUSTODY: When both parents share custody of a child after a divorce. There are two kinds of custody: legal custody and physical custody. Either or both may be joint.

Again, why did they say 'either or both'? Does it not serve to make it clear that 'either-or' is restrictive regarding the alternatives and so they had to put in 'both' to show that both 'legal custody' and 'physical custody' can be 'joint' or one or the other could be so not just...either.

Indeed there are other factors to consider in all of this. I might have been too general.

***

Just "for grins"?

Originally Posted by chapka

A few points:
"Or" cannot mean "and." Nor does the quote you posted indicate that it can.

What is 'and/or'?

The distinction made there is between an inclusive or ("anyone who is either a friend or a customer" can include someone who is both).

=) The way that the bolded portion is worded, the word 'either' causes such to NOT exclude those who are NOT both a friend AND a customer. It removes rendering 'or' as 'and'. =D *Tee hee* [Modifiers such as 'a' or 'the' also might have on plurality as well.] Compared to "anyone who is a friend or a customer" (i.e. 'either' is not in the mix), the presence 'either' prevents the following rendering: "Anyone who is a friend and a customer" as such would exclude those who are either but not both.

Originally Posted by chapka

A few points:

"either fish or cut bait" does not allow the possibility of doing both).

Hmm lets say "Bring" preceeds the bolded portion immediately above. If you are to bring either fish or bait, in a strict legal interpretation, 'or' is prevented from being meaning 'and' in that case. Good going Chapka! I think you are catching on. If 'or' couldnt mean 'and' is either only utilized to keep the word count high/even/odd?



And, Chapka, young grasshopper, if the legal definition for 'legal custody' was written as follows:

LEGAL CUSTODY [[no 'either']]: In a divorce, one of two types of child custody. A parent who has legal custody has the right to be involved in all the decision making typically involved with being a parent, such as religious upbringing, education and medical decisions. Legal custody can be sole or joint....

If a rendering of 'or' proves to be illogical, what then of a rendering that conflicts with higher and well-established principles?

***

When either the Reds or the Greens give an inch, the dispute will be over.

The above expresses >> when either one gives an inch, regardless of what the other does: the dispute will be over. The expression does not suggest that mutual 'giving of an inch' is necessary to end the despute.

When the Reds or the Greens give an inch, the dispute will be over.

With regard to the ending of the dispute, the latter expresses a potential reliance on mutuality in 'giving an inch'. The former does not--the former makes it clear that it only takes one side 'giving an inch' to end the dispute.

[fulltitle]

Originally Posted by chapka

One more:



No it isn't. It doesn't say "trade and commerce, which are privileges," it says "the privileges of trade and commerce." In other words, states can't give special commercial privileges (advantages) to traders in their own state and forbid them to outsiders from neighboring states.



This question doesn't seem to make any sense.

What is what when it's not trade and commerce?

When leaving that, I got busy, I did consider the wording that I utilized--that it might need some scrutiny. The Articles in question do indeed say "the priveleges of trade and commerce". And they may not be saying that all "trade and commerce" are privileges.


I didnt want to get into at the time but I will now. Chapka, young grasshopper, here we go:

I could say the "benefits of eating soup"--whatever benefits there are. Perhaps not all things [arising out] of eating soup are necessarily benefits? "The privileges of trade and commerce" would may infer that there are those things either of or pertaining to "trade and commerce" that are not privileges while only referring to the privileges.

A more concise look at that statement may mean that there are things involving or arising out of trade and commerce that people might do as a matter of their right (i.e. not a privilege). What comes to mind, is private "trade and commerce" as opposed to public "trade and commerce". What also comes to mind are those things that could be presumed to be "commerce" when in fact there is no "commerce". Perhaps it might be true that there are some aspects of "trade and commerce" that are not privileges?

But nonetheless: what would the act of "travelling" through a park selling hot dogs be as opposed to the act of "travelling" through a park enjoying the view? What would riding in my car with enjoying the view be as opposed to riding in my car as a courier?

[fulltitle]

Originally Posted by chapka

A few points:
Finally, no: "motored vehicle" is not more grammatically correct than "motor vehicle." "Motor" is the most commonly used form to signify that something is driven by its own power; for example, in motorcycle, motorboat, motorbike, motorcar, and even the Motor City. I've never heard anyone, ever, use the adjective "motored." If you were correct, we'd have pushedcart vendors, paddledwheel steamboats, and nucleared submarines.

Ya kno what: the term 'motorized vehicle' tends to be utilized [perhaps with gramattic redunancy] moreso than motored =D. [See: Motorized ]



You're too easy, young grasshopper. However, it should be pointed out that the term 'motor cycle' is not necessarily the same word or term as 'motorcycle' and so forth.

And the "nucleared submarine" thing doesn't strike me as a good example. *shakes finger*

Originally Posted by chapka

A few points:
If you were correct, we'd have pushedcart vendors, paddledwheel steamboats, and nucleared submarines.

Nice and facetious response, young grasshopper.

For starters as with the words 'motor', 'push' and 'paddle', does the word 'nuclear' have the potential of being rendered as a verb? Compare "let's nuclear home" with "let's motor home".

Indeed, the examples you gave were off canter. Instead of "pushcart vendor", the emphasis would be more appropriately on the words "push" and "cart", or, "paddle" and "wheel" [not on whats seconarily modified such as vendor--remember its "motor vehicle" we were discussion not "motor vehicle vendor"]--and such would correspond to the likes of a "paddled wheel" or a "pushed cart", no? The condensation (i.e. 'pushed card' is condensed into 'pushcart') 'allows' for the deficiency of '-ed' . How does "motor cycle" differ from "motorcycle" or from "motored cycle" or from "motorized cycle" what is the significance?

*Is it bad English to say "paddled-wheel steamboats"?
*In Chapka's Universal Dictionary would "pushcart vendors" sell either pushed carts, hotdogs or both?

[fulltitle]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE
Dear chapka:



Young grasshopper, in the sciences we have these things called 'gates'. They come under the subject "boolean algebra". There is a gate known as an "AND" gate, and another known as an "OR" gate. There's another one called an "Exclusive OR" gate. THere is also such a thing as an "AND" gate.

For the current on the other side of an AND gate to be "true" the current must exist on inputs "A" and "B".



For the current on the output of an OR gate to be "true", current may exist on either input "A", input "B"" or on both.

See: http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/gates.htm#or.

[I wonder if it could be called an and/or gate?]



What if one really-really meant "OR" not ever "AND" and one only wanted the output to be "true" when either A or B were true but not both? Like what if one really seriously and truly meant "either-or" and not "or-as-in-and"? Well, they have these things called XOR gates too.