International Driving Permit

[fulltitle]

Originally Posted by Avie

**********

This is a hoot. I have been declared an incompacited adult and they call me a ward. Whatever that means.

A sheriff drove up and seized my license. No Mowing violations and no reason given. Sealed file. May 11, 2004. I was stuck in Williamburg for 6 months waiting for state departmetn to send birth certificate. No ID so I stayed in a campground in a tent. DMV siad thata ws not proof of citizenship. I only had a licence in good standing since 1998 in VA and before that in FL.

WITHOUT PREJUDICE
What license did they seize? A state issued one?

[Avie]

Fultitle,
My Virginia License was seized. All inquiries for caomplaint summary are stopped and referred to the Medical section. I had previously suplied 2 perfect DMV physicals. There were overlooked and misplaced. Seems a lawyer (Commisioiner of Accounts) reported me. No proof of such. He had failed in court, 2002 for vehicle seizure. Appears my history is not correct and there is NOTHING with the National Registry.

[fulltitle]

Originally Posted by Avie

Fultitle,
My Virginia License was seized. All inquiries for caomplaint summary are stopped and referred to the Medical section. I had previously suplied 2 perfect DMV physicals. There were overlooked and misplaced. Seems a lawyer (Commisioiner of Accounts) reported me. No proof of such. He had failed in court, 2002 for vehicle seizure. Appears my history is not correct and there is NOTHING with the National Registry.

WITHOUT PREJUDICE
If you are an heir to a sizeable piece of land or own land they could be priming you for a fleecing.

[Avie]

Am I so stupid to not be able to to see a remedy. I have been fleeced and made civally dead. All court files are sealed or gleaned. I have been hunted since 1986. Divorced Miami-1990., Run out of Miami, and West Palm. Arrive Va Auguest 1997. Court still going on in Miami, Palm Beach and VA. Without me or my knowledge. ugh.

[themoneypath]

I have the UN treaty of 69, do a google search and find it for yourself, please show me where you find the FACTS to prove what you are saying below. You ARE RIGHT that the IDP is NOT valid in the country issued.

If a copper stops you and you handle yourself accordingly, MOST OF THE TIME you are left alone.

Originally Posted by Shoonra

Altho it's called the International Driving Permit, this document by itself does not actually authorize someone to drive. The IDP was created by a multinational agreement on highway access and is available for drivers of all kinds of vehicles including those drawn by animals.

Essentially, the IDP provides, in a number of major languages, the translation of much of the information on the holder's official DL, issued by his home govt. The IDP thereby enables the police and others to understand the data on a foreign DL issued in another language. Under the terms of the agreement, the IDP must be accompanied by the official DL, and issued by an office, either in or out of the govt, approved by the driver's home-country govt. The IDP must duplicate the information on the official DL -- any changes (e.g., in birthdate, height, name, etc) are forbidden; and, of course, the IDP is only to be used in foreign countries that use a different language.. In the US, the State Dept authorized the AAA and another national car service club (whose name momentarily escapes me) to issue IDPs (the AAA charges about $15 for an IDP - and it requires seeing the real DL before it works up the IDP).

By itself, without the conventional DL, the IDP does not permit someone to drive. An IDP issued in a different country than the one that issued the DL is unauthorized. A scam is being operated by people who advertise IDPs that allegedly enable someone to adopt a new identity, drive without a DL, be immune to traffic laws, and so forth. Some of these scammers are selling alleged IDPs out of a travel agency in the Caribbean ... and charging as much as $300 for it. But the IDP received for that money clearly does not meet the requirements of the international agreement.

In the US, there have been court decisions that resoundingly reject the use of an IDP as a substitute for a DL ... certainly not for an American driving on an American road. There have also been court decisions that an American's attempt to use, inside the US, an IDP - or the possession of an IDP with a name different from the real DL - is so suspicious that the police are entitled to search him and his car.

[farmer_giles_of_ham]

The best answer for everything could be "apply the law to the facts". Do you have a drivers license? Apply the law to the facts. Can I be charged with such-and-such offense? Apply the law to the facts.

In re IDP: Apply the law to the facts.
here is a link for the founding version of the IDP law
http://www.idlicense.com/unconv.html

It has changed some over the years but remains substantially the same.

"ARTICLE 24 1. Each Contracting State shall allow any driver admitted to its territory who fulfills the conditions which are set out [over 18 years of age] and who holds a valid driving permit issued to him, after he has given proof of his competence, by the competent authority of another Contracting State or subdivision thereof, or by an association duly empowered by such authority, to drive on its roads without further examination motor vehicles of the category or categories defined in annexes 9 and 10 for which the permit has been issued."
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ANY DRIVER OVER 18! WHO HOLDS A VALID PERMIT FROM A CONTRACTING STATE! AFTER GIVING PROOF OF COMPETENCE! Roadside drivers test, anyone? Statutes usually provide for just that, a quick demonstration of competence, conducted by investigating agent, for drivers from outside USA/CANADA.

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"2. A Contracting State may however require that any driver admitted to its territory shall carry an international driving permit conforming to the model contained in annex 10, especially in the case of [b]a driver coming from a country where a domestic driving permit is not required or where the domestic permit issued to him does not conform to the [standard] model."

So its entirely possible that a driver holds a valid driving permit, under the laws of the home status, without actually being issued any driver licence instrument or one that is useless for making any determinations.

Now, as to the first part above, the so-called 'requirement to carry an IDP, especially when...' (no issued instrument, for example), we have the esteemed opinion of the Idaho Dept, available at

http://itd.idaho.gov/dmv/driverservi...onalpermit.htm
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"Foreign Drivers in Idaho
... Visitors must carry the foreign driver license and, in addition, it is suggested that visitors carry an International Driving Permit issued by officials in their country of residence. It is not mandatory that visitors have the International Driving Permit; it is merely a suggestion to aid law enforcement officials and others who need to know the actual content of the license. The International Driving Permit is a translation of the foreign license into the nine official languages of the United Nations, including English.

Since an International Driving Permit is not a driver license, merely a translation of the foreign driver license, it does not authorize any driving privileges. You may not drive in Idaho carrying just an International Driving Permit."
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So we can drive without ANY 'domestic drivers permit', ie- a drivers card, legally. And we dont need any IDP either, since its just a helpful suggestion, according to this IDAHO Dept. I Love the Idaho DMV, they are so helpful.

So how does IDAHO or any other state require us to carry a 'foreign license', which may not exist in the form of an instrument (a 'DL')? Are they in conflict with the Intl Treat which acknowledged to be law all of the US of A? Here is evidence for that, in the IDAHO opinion

"...The United States signed an agreement with many other countries to honor a foreign driver license for visitors to the United States for up to one year from the date of arrival. This privilege is made possible as a result of the United Nations Convention on Road Traffic (Geneva, 1949), and the Convention on the Regulation of American Automotive Traffic (Washington, 1943), both of which have been ratified by the United States."

"Visitors from foreign countries may drive non-commercially in Idaho using a foreign-issued driver license"

So where does this leave us? Lets sum up-

1. We are USA authorized by International Private Law to 'drive non-commercially' in the territory of the Contracting States.

2. Provided we hold a 'valid permit' under the law of a Contracting State. ( I am a Contracting State, A PRIVATE FREEHOLDER)

3. Even if the home state in question does not issue a 'domestic driving permit', or the same is 'non-conforming' (mine doesnt)

4. We are not required to carry the helpful convenient suggested IDP, because it is merely a translation of certain information in several languages.

Yet 'states may require the IDP' What does that mean?

The Int'l Convention in question provides the answer, in hint form.

"enable them to establish the identity of persons holding domestic or international driving permits when they are liable to proceedings for a driving offense... required to establish the identity of the owner or the person in whose name a foreign vehicle which has been involved in a serious accident is registered."

TO ESTABLISH THE IDENTITY WHEN (WHEN!) THEY ARE LIABLE FOR A DRIVING OFFENSE, OR INVOLVED WITH A TRAFFIC ACCIDENT!

So we CAN display an IDP, or an acceptable 'domestic permit', for just that purpose: to identify ourselves, should we choose to. To bond out on a driver infraction the MINIMUM is always going to be, name address age etc. Thats basic anyway. How handy to have an IDP to translate everythig for you and establish your identity in a place where you dont speak the language. I haoppen to speak English so I dont really need that in most of the Western World. Hand signals work well too.

Thats why the IDP's are so disposable, and basic (just cardboard with a picture stapled to it)- so you could even leave it with the cops as a bond, easy to use and understand. The convention establishes, among other things, that we have the same right to drive, and the smae liability to the laws of the territorial state, whether in 'domestic traffic', or 'international traffic'. There are only two choices, they cant be both at the same time, because every state usually requires us to 'declare the state of residence for driving purpose', even if you are otherwise resident in several states (maybe even the one where you are stopped!) For driving purpose I am resident in a contracting state party to the convention foreign to 'this state' and under international law.

Driving is analgous to boating and river traffic. The highways are like streams of water, we are in motion, and we must be flagged. So it's 'flag law', personal status law that applies based on the 'residence', or 'flag' of the person in question. Domestic rules for domestic vessels, International rules for foreign ones.

Apply the law to the facts. Same for registration, insurance, etc.

inverness@hushmail.com

[charlesa6]

farmer_giles_of_ham, welcome to the forum, and thanks for the link.

[Notorial dissent]

Originally Posted by farmer_giles_of_ham

( I am a Contracting State, A PRIVATE FREEHOLDER)

Nice try, NO COOKIE!!!!!!

The International Drivers Permit (IDP) Treaty provides that the permit may be issued to and used by a person having a valid driver's permit or license in their home country, in this case a state driver's license. The permit is not valid in the country of origin, that would be here. The treaty is valid only for the NATIONS having signed it, and unless your signature is on the treaty you don't qualify as a contracting state.

[Shoonra]

To add to that, I do not believe that an IDP could be used as collateral to post bond on a traffic arrest (assuming some countries allow bonding out). There's no way the arresting authority could turn it into cash, it's possession is not necessary for driving, and it can be replaced by the driver if lost. I would imagine that almost any savvy traffic authority in the world knows that it costs Americans a mere $15.

Quite the contrary, the presence of an IDP demonstrates a definite flight risk, certainly when carried inside the US by an American driver (and very certainly if the IDP doesn't match his true identity).

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

To add to that, I do not believe that an IDP could be used as collateral to post bond on a traffic arrest (assuming some countries allow bonding out). There's no way the arresting authority could turn it into cash, it's possession is not necessary for driving, and it can be replaced by the driver if lost. I would imagine that almost any savvy traffic authority in the world knows that it costs Americans a mere $15.

Quite the contrary, the presence of an IDP demonstrates a definite flight risk, certainly when carried inside the US by an American driver (and very certainly if the IDP doesn't match his true identity).

That is admission the legal name is a Government bond:

“Recognized Government bonds are as safe as Government currency. They have the same credit back of them. And, therefore, if we can persuade people all through the country, when their salary checks come in, to deposit them in new accounts, which will be held in trust and kept in one of the new forms I have mentioned, we shall have made progress.” The Public Papers and Addresses of Franklin D. Roosevelt; 1933 The Year of Crisis; Random House 1938; page 19. Excerpt from the Address before the Governors’ Conference at the White House. March 6, 1933.


I love Shoonra blurts. That is why Notorial Dissent is on my Ignore List but Shoonra is not.



Regards,

David Merrill.



P.S. Sadly we do not have Shoonra compounding her admission with a denial. But should you be having any doubts about my assertion that the card itself, or one's desire for it can behave like a PR Bond, then consider that you cannot enter certain government buildings or board most airliners without a "Government-Issued ID Card".

The other day I was in a Copy Shop and a soldier inquired about passport photos for his passport. I suggested he wanted to spend the $18 on lunch for his family, stood him against the white wall for the shot, transferred the image to his keychain DataStick with instructions how to work the new Photo ID feature at the Wolf Camera self-service kiosk (.38 cents). The point being, even though he was in the service, he had to send his FRNs out of his own stipend should he want the state department to issue him their passport.

At one point I pulled out my wallet and he was curious about my World Passport. I told him since the US owned his body and family estate anyway, he should have no objection to paying for a US-owned passport too. He agreed.