Today was my first traffic experiment with Clickit or bend over

[David Merrill]

Originally Posted by Shoonra

From the North Carolina General Statutes:



In other words, sinice you were operating a vehicle, the policeman did have a right to require you to show him your DL, and if you didn't then you were at least committing a violation of this law .... or possibly driving without being licensed. In either case, he could arrest you and prevent you from driving away until it could be established that you were licensed to drive.

Nope Shoonra;

I love it!

...who shall refuse to write his name for the purpose of identification or to give his name and address and the name and address of the owner of such vehicle, or who shall give a false name or address...

My reading of that is I satisfy the code by tendering "David Merrill" on a sheet of paper (Certificate of Search on "David Merrill" in the district court of the United States). I told the officer once that I would write it down spelled correctly and he would not let me have his notepad. Just the offer was good enough. He detained me fourteen of the allowed and notified fifteen minutes and allowed me to leave even though I could tell he wanted me arrested.

Before he gave me the Certificate back he demanded, "One more chance; what is your Date of Birth?" I replied, "I do not have that Information."

...who shall refuse to write his name for the purpose of identification or to give his name and address and the name and address of the owner of such vehicle, or who shall give a false name or address...

I think many readers here would agree if there are two requirements - to give my name in writing or to give my name and address I can satisfy the requirement by writing my name for the purpose of identification. Any reading of the code will uphold that I satisfied the requirement by writing my name.



Regards,

David Merrill.

[Shoonra]

Originally Posted by David Merrill

I think many readers here would agree if there are two requirements - to give my name in writing or to give my name and address I can satisfy the requirement by writing my name for the purpose of identification. Any reading of the code will uphold that I satisfied the requirement by writing my name. Regards, David Merrill.

I don't read it that way, you are expected to provide your name and address and of the vehicle owner in the event of an accident, and in the event of an accident, either a policeman or the other driver can demand to see your DL. And, apart from an accident, a policeman can demand to see your DL if he stops you while you are driving (or operating a vehicle or whatever terminology works for you). In other words, a policeman, in either instance, can insist on seeing your DL and not be satisfied with anything else.

The law requires you to have your DL with you whenever you drive. There's a reason for that. The cop could have arrested you for (1) driving without a license in your immediate possession, (2) suspicion of driving without any currently valid DL, or (3) a variety of other things such as suspicion of driving a stolen car, obstruction of police operations, etc.

There is an article in ALR relating to the statutory requirement to have your DL with you whenever you drive and to present it when requested by a cop. That requirement has been upheld in, I think, every state.

[David Merrill]

Your reading assumes that the Revised Statutes of the State corporation are law.

Any person operating or in charge of a motor vehicle, when requested by an officer in uniform , or, in the event of accident in which the vehicle which he is operating or in charge of shall be involved, when requested by any other person, who shall refuse to write his name for the purpose of identification or to give his name and address and the name and address of the owner of such vehicle, or who shall give a false name or address, or who shall refuse, on demand of such officer or such other person, to produce his license and exhibit same to such officer or such other person for the purpose of examination, or who shall refuse to surrender his license on demand of the Division, or fail to produce same when requested by a court of this State, shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

If the reading was as you say the "or" logic would be avoided for clarity - example of your reading:

Any person operating or in charge of a motor vehicle, when requested by an officer in uniform , or, in the event of accident in which the vehicle which he is operating or in charge of shall be involved, when requested by any other person, who shall refuse ... on demand of such officer or such other person, to produce his license and exhibit same to such officer or such other person for the purpose of examination ... shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

I understand your perspective is that the Revised Statute hold the power of law even without an enacting clause. However you should understand my perspective too.

Section 18. Enacting clause. The style of the laws of this state shall be: "Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Colorado".

Without an enacting clause, the statute is not law. Therefore the attorneys had to write in the minimum common law requirement that I should write my name correctly on a piece of paper for identification purposes. To me the statute reads:

Any person operating or in charge of a motor vehicle, when requested by an officer in uniform , or, in the event of accident in which the vehicle which he is operating or in charge of shall be involved, when requested by any other person, who shall refuse to write his name for the purpose of identification ... shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

And that only upon notice. Because of proper identification being so essential to law enforcement I agree. However the law enforcement officers do not care to notify anyone that all they need to do is write their true name on a piece of paper*, even in an accident to satisfy the law, there is little chance that the "Class 2 misdemeanor" would stick.

You will have difficulty convincing me otherwise when I have had this work for myself and other people too, many of whom write here on suijuris.net.



Regards,

David Merrill.


* How do they know I wrote down my true name? Simple. The only alternative is an unsubstantiated accusation of criminal impersonation. A man is innocent until proven guilty. I hope that is still in the ALR or AmJur or somewhere!



P.S. Presuming global METRO uniformity, can you find the corresponding State of Colorado policy? I would like to see that.

[Shoonra]

I have explained this repeatedly on a number of threads on this forum. There is a difference between a code and a statute.

The statutes are individual, sometimes amend earlier statutes, are issued (and published) chronologically, and they have the requisite enacting clause.

The code is a logical (not chronological) arrangement of the sections of statutes (at least, those of general and lasting application), the various amendments and updates incorporated into the text. This would omit the opening caption, including the enacting clause, and the signatures of the individual statute. But it does contain the "effective" part of the statutes already enacted according to the constitutional requirements. For that reason, the text of the code is regarded as prima facie evidence of the law; that is, the text of the code is presumed to accurately repeat the updated text of the original statute(s) - and the presumption is overcome only by reference to the original individual statutes to show that the code section has an error.

Gee, I hope I don't have to explain this again.

[scooterdog]

That law is only for comercial driving.

"It is an undisputed fact that MAN is excluded as a person in the MCA. "The word "person" includes a corporation as well as a natural person." Montana Code Annotated 1-1-201(1)(b), and MCA 61-1-101(42). The Accused is a Sovereign MAN, a holder of the inherent political power, and not any such "person" as defined in statutes. "

The "RIGHT" of the Citizen to travel upon the public*highways and to transport his property thereon, by horse-drawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is NOT a mere PRIVILEGE which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but a "COMMON*RIGHT" which he has under his right to*life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Under this constitutional guarantee one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination along the public*highways or in public*places, and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent*manner, neither interfering with, not disturbing another's*"RIGHTS," he will be protected, not only in his person, but in his safe conduct. (Emphasis*added) See:*11*American*Jurisprudence*1st., Constitutional*Law, 329, page*1123

Originally Posted by Shoonra

From the North Carolina General Statutes:



In other words, sinice you were operating a vehicle, the policeman did have a right to require you to show him your DL, and if you didn't then you were at least committing a violation of this law .... or possibly driving without being licensed. In either case, he could arrest you and prevent you from driving away until it could be established that you were licensed to drive.

[mnchicago]

Sure, there may be case cites about not having to provide
ID, etc, but the police who stop you have not read them,
and if you give them what they consider a hard time, they
will do whatever they can to make your life miserable.

"Follow me, Sir!" etc.

I was going to look into what to do in traffic stop
situations, but opted to read up on jurisdiction for
the moment. It would be interesting to know more
about experiences, such as Henry's.

If anyone else has more direct experiences, please post.

Originally Posted by mnchicago

they
will do whatever they can to make your life miserable.

Fear is no reason to comply.

The fear will get worse if that's what it takes to stop us.

The time has come to live without fear.

Are you ready? Or are you waiting for someone else to test the waters for you?


I am not testing the waters, I have a 120hp motor in the water, and I am moving.

[mnchicago]

Congratulations on your testing of the waters!

Me? Unles I knnow what I am doing, I ain't about to throw
myself overboard.

The solution(s) may be simple, but like I say, I have not
yet read up on traffic stop situations. They are not that
important as an issue for me

But hey, at one point, I used to be afraid of the IRS, and
they can be much more intimidating than Officer of the day.

[scooterdog]

Your first chance to get out of the ticket is when he asks for your license and registration, tell him EXACTLY this and in these words :

I do not consent to your detaining me.

Are you detaining me ? (Make sure he answers your questions)

If he says "NO" he is not detaining you then say :

Then I am free to go right? (If he says yes then leave)

If he says "NO" you can not leave, then ask him :

Please tell me what common law misdemeanor or felony crime are you arresting me for.

Don't let him off the hook, make him state the exact law to you. The reason for this is that traffic infractions are not CRIMES, that is why they are called infractions. If you have not committed a crime he can not lawfully stop and arrest you unless you consent. There also is no law that says you must answer any of his questions, so don't answer them. Just ask him questions which he must answer by law.

If he says you are not under arrest then you say :

Well, if I am not being detained and I am not under arrest then I can go right?
(What can he say? He has to say "YES" or he looks like an idiot.}

If he should say he is doing a field interview (FIR) then you say to him:

You have stopped me unlawfully without any specific and articuable facts or reasonable suspicion that I committed any crime and I do not consent to this interview. I will be leaving now. Then just leave.

If the officer is really unsure of what he is doing or the proper way to deal with you and starts acting nervous then demand that he call his supervisor to the scene. When his supervisor shows up, start over with the same questions again, ask about why are you detained or arrested. Make him answer you. If he can't answer you, then they are breaking the law by holding you against your will, under false arrest and false imprisonment. If they are stupid enough to take you to the police station, they would be kidnapping you.

If the cop is foolish enough to ask for your license and registration again, tell him it's in the glove box or where ever it is, THEN reach for it. Again, reduce his apprehension about the situation, he is going to be very uneasy because of your questions. So move slowly and carefully when you hand him your papers.

DO NOT ARGUE, BEG, OR PLEAD YOUR CASE. The roadside is NEVER the place to conduct a hearing. To do so is a guaranteed losing situation. Cops enforce, courts decide.

Besides the cops just love it when you beg them or cry as it inflates their ego.

Be as firm as possible. If you make a fuss, the officer is more likely to remember that when you go to trial. That's bad, you want to be firm but, as nice as possible.

Practice the above conversation until you have it memorized, go over it backwards and forward, until it is burned into your brain. Practice it like a play with a friend or your wife or husband until you can do it with out thinking.
You want it to come out naturally and automatically. You need to remember the key words, CONSENT, DETAINING, COMMON LAW, ARREST, MISDEMEANOR, FELONY, CRIME, FIELD INTERVIEW (FIR), SPECIFIC AND ARTICUABLE FACTS, and REASONABLE SUSPICION. These are all "words of art" that the cop will instantly recognize and they will make him very unsure about trying to bully you around.

If after your conversation, the cops still don't decide to break off their contact with you and go looking for easier fish to fry, don't worry, we are not done yet. If the officer comes back with your license and his ticket book he is going to want you to sign the ticket. This is not an admission of guilt on your part but it is a promise by you that you will appear in court if you decide not to mail in the money for the ticket. If you do not sign the ticket he will take you straight to jail as this is a separate misdemeanor crime.

This is your second big chance to get out of the ticket. When the cop hands you the ticket he will indicate where you should sign it. Usually there is a small space and a blank line for your signature. Before you sign, read it over carefully and note any errors like he wrote down your speed as 300 MPH or he wrote 2AM instead of 2PM. If you find errors make him correct them before you sign it.

Now, when you are ready to sign it, first clearly print (small) on the signature line these exact six magic words:

DETENTION CONSENT DENIED - JURY TRIAL DEMANDED

Then sign the ticket in what ever room is left, even if you run over into some printing.
What do you care if it isn't pretty, you don't get any extra credit for being neat.

It is very important to learn and memorize those exact words because they will destroy the ticket in court. You must also print the words clearly BEFORE you sign, because the cop may try to grab the ticket book back as soon as you sign it. Don't let him try to trick you. It is your right to enter your words into the court record by writing them right on the ticket, it is called due process, just make sure you sign the ticket after you print the words.

The cop will give you your copy of the ticket and hand you back your license and other paperwork. Then as he is leaving he will try his last trick on you... He will ask you for permission to search your car. There it is again, he is asking for your consent, to do an
otherwise illegal no warrant search of your car. He has to wait until you are no longer detained and are free to go, otherwise it would not be voluntary consent by you.

Tell him NO...

Tell him if he thinks he has probable cause he can go to a judge and ask for a valid search warrant. If he doesn't have a warrant he can not search your car. Then start up your car and leave.

When you've parted company and you have driven away from the cop, stop your car and make detailed notes of the situation. Amount of traffic, weather, time, officer's demeanor, etc. No detail or event is unimportant, you will forget it later when you need to know it, IF you go to court. If anybody is riding with you have them write out a statement about what they saw and heard, make sure they sign their name and address at the bottom. It is also a good idea to draw a map of the area, including trees, signs, buildings, etc. You may need that later.

If it's your first ticket in ten years and you expect it will be another decade before you get another one, you may want to avoid this whole next section, pay the fine and move on. Or you may want to consider going to traffic school, which takes a day of your time, but keeps your record clear. If you can't attend traffic school--or choose not to--and you do not want to just mail in the fine, you will need to develop the proper strategy to fight your ticket in court and here is how to do it.


Keep your copy of the ticket!

Now this is why those magic words you wrote will cause your ticket to self destruct, probably way before you ever get scheduled to go to court. Usually as soon as the State Attorney who will prosecute your case in court sees your magic words on the ticket, he will cancel it and send you a letter saying the case is dismissed.

Originally Posted by mnchicago

Congratulations on your testing of the waters!

Me? Unles I knnow what I am doing, I ain't about to throw
myself overboard.

The solution(s) may be simple, but like I say, I have not
yet read up on traffic stop situations. They are not that
important as an issue for me

But hey, at one point, I used to be afraid of the IRS, and
they can be much more intimidating than Officer of the day.

[mnchicago]

Now that's what I am talking about!


I am begining to acquire some info on dealing w/traffic stops,
but I have not yet put it into a cohesive plan.

Thank you for sharing, scooterdog.