Cites - Registration

[Codee]

There is also this statement made which is grossly in error and would hurt you bad if you tried to use it:

Originally Posted by Gmail

5. If your Demur is not granted, enter a plea of NOT GUILTY and demand a trial by jury. In DMV cases the judge will lie to you and not allow it. You can now file a federal civil action against the judge for the violation of U. S. Constitution, Article 3, Section 3, Which states: "The trial of all crimes... shall be by jury". PC Section 16 also lists Infractions as being crimes and thus affords a trial by jury. If you are denied a jury trial, the judge is admitting that there is no crime, so file or lodge in court a Motion to Dismiss the charges.

California Appelate Courts have already ruled PC Section 16 does not include infractions despite the legislature stating so. See if the following is clear.

"Further, infractions are not crimes and the rule forbidding successive prosecutions of a defendant is not applicable when an infraction is one of the offenses involved. (People v. Battle (1975) 50 Cal.App.3d Supp. 1 [123 Cal.Rptr. 636].) fn. 1 [1b] Proceedings on infractions are not attended by the same constitutional safeguards as those attending felony or misdemeanor prosecutions. The limitation on an accused's right to jury trial of infractions has withstood constitutional attack upon the rationale the Legislature did not intend to classify infractions as crimes."
People v. Sava (1987) 190 Cal.App.3d 935

AND

"If the Legislature intended to treat infractions as public offenses and if the charging of a public offense invokes the right to trial by jury, sections 19c and 1042.5, which deny a jury to one who commits an infraction, conflict with section 689. However, the same (1968) Legislature enacted section 19c, the pertinent amendment of section 16 and section 1042.5. Construing these sections in accordance with the precepts laid down in In re Kay, supra, we must conclude that it was not the intent of the Legislature to enact inconsistent statutes and, further, that when it added the term "public offense" to section 16 it was not so categorizing infractions because if it did so, it would have caused inconsistency between sections 19c and 689 of the Penal Code."
People V. Battle 50 Cal App 3rd Supp.1

I am not as sure about this but I think you cannot sue a state in federal court for a voiolation of your rights unless you start the action in state court and use the feds as an appeal. I may be reading this wrong but here it is.

[fnt 1. In February Term, 1974, judgment was rendered for the plaintiff, and a writ of enquiry awarded. The writ, however, was not sued out and executed; so that this cause, and all the other suits against states, were swept at once from the records of the court, by the amendment to the Federal Constitution, agreeably to the unanimous determination of the judges, in Hollingsworth et al. v. Virginia, argued at February term, 1798.]
Grisholm V. Georgia 2 U.S. (2 Dall.) 419, 1 L.Ed 440.

[caldude]

Originally Posted by Codee

This is also wrong. The judge willnot tell you this in California. He will tell you that a ticket is a complaint that you can plead "guilty" to. If you do not plead "guilty" then the court loses jurisdiction until a formal complaint can be made. This has rich case law to support it so I wonder why this was not mentioned more clearly.

Maybe true, but they try to force you into a not guilty plea over your objection. I know, I've had it happen twice. You try requesting a verified complaint and they deny you.

I'd like to know how you deal with that.

[joseph sugarman]

If you have been proceeded against at trial without the government having verified the complaint; appeal to the next higher court. If that fails, file a declaratory suit for Void Judgment.

[DCLXVI]

Originally Posted by caldude

Maybe true, but they try to force you into a not guilty plea over your objection. I know, I've had it happen twice. You try requesting a verified complaint and they deny you.

I'd like to know how you deal with that.

You cannot just stand there and expect to get off. There are statutes stating that the Magistrate must enter a plea of not guilty if the defendant does not answer.

You must plea at the bar. After the court has determined that the ticket can be pleaded to yu must either demur the charges or you must plea to them.

A ticket can be pleaded to despite the notion it is insufficient. If you plead then you waive all defects in the complaint.

If you demur the complaint then you will have an opportunity to show it does not live up to the requirements in the Code of Civil Procedure.

[goffertrap]

Originally Posted by caldude

Maybe true, but they try to force you into a not guilty plea over your objection. I know, I've had it happen twice. You try requesting a verified complaint and they deny you.

I'd like to know how you deal with that.

Can't you just play stupid? Say something like "I'm not pleading guilty". And when judge says "then you plead not guilty", this is where playing stupid comes in. "NO". "I'm not making a plea".

I don't live in Cal. so I can't say that would work. Where I live, they just mark "not guilty" and go on. But, in Cal you probably have these lower court judges that have a little education, god knows it's lacking here.

Caldude: Have you heard of something called the "RED BOOK"? Thats supposed to be helpfull for those in Cal. Ask around, you may find it for free. I don't know if its just a big book on traffic there, or if it has forms, but I have read here and there that a few people who have it like it, you may too.

[Lucky225]

Cites for Texas

http://www.freedom-school.com/travel...ion-story.html

Originally Posted by Freedom School

Texas Vehicle Registration is a Sham.

When I moved to Texas from California I went to register my vehicle. The clerk told me my SSN was required to get my vehicle registered. I wondered about this recently and went to lookup the actual law. My findings were that not only am I not required to provide my SSN for vehicle registration, but that I'm in fact not even required to register my vehicle in the first place!

This isn't the first time I was lied to by a State employee, when I applied for a Texas ID card I was told a SSN was required when in fact it is only required for a Driver License, and even then only if you actually have a SSN.

Here is correspondence I had with Texas DPS after the fact:

----Original Message-----
From: Lucky 225 [mailto:lucky225@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 12:41 AM
To: license.issuance
Subject: Identification Card

To whom it may concern:

I moved to Texas a couple of years ago and I applied for an Identification card within the first week I had arrived. I was deceived by the DPS employee into believing that disclosure of my SSN was required pursuant Texas state law. However, after reviewing the Texas DPS website, and studying statutes and their history, I found that disclosure of the SSN was only required for a driver license, not an identification card. I feel defrauded as I disclosed this information under the influence of a State employee who compelled me to disclose such information when it was not required by law, which by the way is illegal under Title 42 USC 408 which states:

"(a) In general Whoever -
(8) discloses, uses, or compels the disclosure of the social security number of any person in violation of the laws of the United States;
shall be guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both."

I am therefore writing this letter to ask if there is any way that I can have said number removed from DPS' records, and what action I must take to get such information removed.

Thanks in advance,
Jered [omitted]

Dear Mr. [omitted]:

This is in response to your email concerning your Texas Identification number.

Please accept my sincere apology for any misinformation you were given with regards to the issuance of your Texas identification card. A social security number is not required to obtain a Texas Identification card. However, once the Social Security Number becomes part of the driver record, we are not authorized to remove the information from the record.

Please be assured that your social security information entered on the driver record is confidential and is not printed on the actual Identification card. In accordance with Texas Administrative Code 521.044 disclosure of the Social Security number by the Texas Department of Public Safety may only be disclosed to child support and law enforcement agencies.

Once again, we apologize for the misinformation you received and any inconvenience you encountered as a result of this situation. If you should have additional questions, please feel free to contact a License Issuance Representative at (512) 424-5089.

Peggy Gillum
Administrative Assistant II
Technical Support

OK, so, let's look at the statute that supposedly required me to give my SSN when I registered my vehicle:
Texas Transportation Code
§ 501.0235. SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER OF TITLE APPLICANT: AUTOMATED REGISTRATION AND TITLE SYSTEM.

(a) The department shall require an applicant for a certificate of title to provide the applicant's social security number to the department.
(b) The department or the county shall enter the applicant's social security number in the department's electronic database but may not print that number on the certificate of title.
(c) This section applies only in a county in which the department's automated registration and title system has been implemented.

Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, § 30.38(a), eff. Sept. 1, 1997. (emphasis added)

The key here is Certificate of Title, I didn't apply for a Certificate of Title, I opted to keep my out-of-state Certificate of Title and apply for Registration Purposes Only pursuant to Texas Transportation Code § 501.029(b)
Texas Transportation Code
§ 501.029. USE OF REGISTRATION RECEIPT OR TITLE RECEIPT TO EVIDENCE TITLE.

(b) The department by rule may provide for the issuance of a receipt that evidences title to a motor vehicle for registration purposes only. The fee for application for the receipt is the fee applicable to application for a certificate of title.

Then I found out that the clerk had actually processed my Registration Purposes Only application using the Certificate of Title application that has an SSN field on it, but that is obviously not required since I was not applying for a Certificate of Title.

The clerk could have easily used VTR-272 Application for Registration Purposes Only available at: Vehicle Title Forms (VTR-272 link may change but should be available on the link above.)

The VTR-272 form does not even have a field for a SSN.

So I went to check Chapter 502, as that that is the chapter regarding Vehicle Registration, Chapter 501 is only in regards to Certificate of Titles. I didn't find any laws requiring me to provide an SSN for registration, but what I did find was that registration may not even be required in the first place!
Texas Transportation Code
§ 502.002. REGISTRATION REQUIRED; GENERAL RULE.

(a) The owner of a motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer shall apply for the registration of the vehicle for:
(1) each registration year in which the vehicle is used or to be used on a public highway;and
(2) if the vehicle is unregistered for a registration year that has begun and that applies to the vehicle and if the vehicle is used or to be used on a public highway, the remaining portion of that registration year.
(b) The application must be made to the department through the county assessor-collector of the county in which the owner resides.
(c) A provision of this chapter that conflicts with this section prevails over this section to the extent of the conflict.
(d) A county assessor-collector, a deputy county assessor-collector, or a person acting on behalf of a county assessor-collector is not liable to any person for:
(1) refusing to register a motor vehicle because of the person's failure to submit evidence of residency that complies with the department's rules; or
(2) registering a motor vehicle under this section.

Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, § 30.44(a), eff. Sept. 1, 1997. (emphasis added)

So it would appear that a person would be required to register a motor vehicle, except if there was a conflict pursuant to 502.002(c), well as odd as it may seem, I found a conflict right below it in § 502.003

[Lucky225]

TEXAS REGISTRATION PART II

Originally Posted by Freedom School

Texas Transportation Code
§ 502.003. REGISTRATION BY POLITICAL SUBDIVISION PROHIBITED.
(a) Except as provided by Subsection (b), a political subdivision of this state may not require an owner of a motor vehicle to:
(1) register the vehicle;
(2) pay a motor vehicle registration fee; or
(3) pay an occupation tax or license fee in connection with a motor vehicle.
(b) This section does not affect the authority of a municipality to:
(1) license and regulate the use of motor vehicles for compensation within the municipal limits; and
(2) impose a permit fee or street rental charge for the operation of each motor vehicle used to transport passengers for compensation, other than a motor vehicle operating under a registration certificate from the department or a permit from the federal Surface Transportation Board.(emphasis added)

Call me crazy, but is the county assessor-collector of the county NOT a political subdivision of the State of Texas, is a peace officer not working for a political subdivision of the State of Texas, is any County Judge not working for a political subdivision of the State of Texas? It seems to me that registration is not required unless you own a motor vehicle that you are using for compensation, pursuant to §502.003(b). Further, for those of you that didn't happen to purchase your vehicle out-of-state such as myself, I'd like to show you a law regarding Certificate of Titles:
Texas Transportation Code
§ 501.004. APPLICABILITY. (a) This chapter applies to a motor vehicle owned by the state or a political subdivision of the state. (emphasis added)

It appears you're not even required to obtain a Certificate of Title *OR* register your motor vehicle in Texas.

[Godssun]

Originally Posted by Lucky225

Call me crazy

All righty. You are crazy.

Sec. 502.002. REGISTRATION REQUIRED; GENERAL RULE. (a) The owner of a motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer shall apply for the registration of the vehicle for:
(1) each registration year in which the vehicle is used or to be used on a public highway; and
(2) if the vehicle is unregistered for a registration year that has begun and that applies to the vehicle and if the vehicle is used or to be used on a public highway, the remaining portion of that registration year.
(b) The application must be made to the department through the county assessor-collector of the county in which the owner resides.
(c) A provision of this chapter that conflicts with this section prevails over this section to the extent of the conflict.
(d) A county assessor-collector, a deputy county assessor-collector, or a person acting on behalf of a county assessor-collector is not liable to any person for:
(1) refusing to register a motor vehicle because of the person's failure to submit evidence of residency that complies with the department's rules; or
(2) registering a motor vehicle under this section.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 30.44(a), eff. Sept. 1, 1997.

It is clearly shown that registration is required for "motor vehicles". It is also clearly shown that application is made "to the department" and is made "through the county assessor."

The department is not a political subdivision of the state and the county assessor provides the registration but the State is the issuing power.

You can argue back till you are blue. However you need to address what "To the department" means.

Sec. 502.001. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
...
(3) "Department" means the Texas Department of Transportation.