09-19-2006, 05:55 PM
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Practice Makes Perfect
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 302
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DMV Employee Refuses Signature
My brother's wife went to the DMV with the intent of obtaining a new driver's license - for the purpose of identification only. When she attempted to sign "All rights reserved, under duress" and then her signature, the DMV employee told her that was not her signature and that it had to be JOE K. BLOW and nothing else. Not knowing what to do, she reluctantly signed.
The UCC does not have a definition of "legal signature", instead it defines does not define a legal signature. Instead, it defines a signature on a negotiable instrument as “any name, word, mark or writing used with the intention of authenticating a document.” It further states that a signature may be handwritten, typed, printed or made in any other manner, and that a signature could appear in the body of an instrument rather than on a signature line [UCC 1-201(30)].
Understanding that the DMV is only requiring a signature on a negotiable instrument, since you are actually signing a contract, you may write whatever is necessary to authenticate the document.
Personally, if it had been me applying, I would have attempted to cite the UCC and see where I got. I'm almost certain that would get no where since the government employees behind the counter don't know about the UCC and don't care. They have the power and they will continue to exercise it, especially if you argue with them. With that in mind I probably would have walked away and made a new appointment with some one else.
__________________
Peace,
-Gabe
For educational purposes only, not to be construed as legal advice.
No liability assumed, no value assured, without recourse.
He who does not assert his rights, has none.
Oh, and in case you're wondering - the profile picture is really me.
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09-19-2006, 06:05 PM
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Banned User
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,866
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by redy2fiyt
My brother's wife went to the DMV with the intent of obtaining a new driver's license - for the purpose of identification only. When she attempted to sign "All rights reserved, under duress" and then her signature, the DMV employee told her that was not her signature and that it had to be JOE K. BLOW and nothing else. Not knowing what to do, she reluctantly signed.
The UCC does not have a definition of "legal signature", instead it defines does not define a legal signature. Instead, it defines a signature on a negotiable instrument as “any name, word, mark or writing used with the intention of authenticating a document.” It further states that a signature may be handwritten, typed, printed or made in any other manner, and that a signature could appear in the body of an instrument rather than on a signature line [UCC 1-201(30)].
Understanding that the DMV is only requiring a signature on a negotiable instrument, since you are actually signing a contract, you may write whatever is necessary to authenticate the document.
Personally, if it had been me applying, I would have attempted to cite the UCC and see where I got. I'm almost certain that would get no where since the government employees behind the counter don't know about the UCC and don't care. They have the power and they will continue to exercise it, especially if you argue with them. With that in mind I probably would have walked away and made a new appointment with some one else.
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Very simple to handle this one... go to another BMV site.
Instead of all that writing... simply put UTDC and then sign your name OVER IT.
Ice
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09-19-2006, 06:56 PM
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The Outta Commissiona
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida Republic
Posts: 5,417
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Great suggestion, ICE
A friend here in Florida affixed w/o/p as part of his signature
When he went to traffic court, he showed the judge the DL and told him what the w/o/p meant
That PLUS his intelligently filed paperwork got him out of there w/o damage
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09-19-2006, 07:09 PM
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Come and Get Some!
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Illinois(chi-town)
Posts: 5,076
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by redy2fiyt
My brother's wife went to the DMV with the intent of obtaining a new driver's license - for the purpose of identification only. When she attempted to sign "All rights reserved, under duress" and then her signature, the DMV employee told her that was not her signature and that it had to be JOE K. BLOW and nothing else. Not knowing what to do, she reluctantly signed.
The UCC does not have a definition of "legal signature", instead it defines does not define a legal signature. Instead, it defines a signature on a negotiable instrument as “any name, word, mark or writing used with the intention of authenticating a document.” It further states that a signature may be handwritten, typed, printed or made in any other manner, and that a signature could appear in the body of an instrument rather than on a signature line [UCC 1-201(30)].
Understanding that the DMV is only requiring a signature on a negotiable instrument, since you are actually signing a contract, you may write whatever is necessary to authenticate the document.
Personally, if it had been me applying, I would have attempted to cite the UCC and see where I got. I'm almost certain that would get no where since the government employees behind the counter don't know about the UCC and don't care. They have the power and they will continue to exercise it, especially if you argue with them. With that in mind I probably would have walked away and made a new appointment with some one else.
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Write your name all caps and put "DBA" at the end of it. You still reserve your right.
__________________
Resolution pending
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09-19-2006, 07:16 PM
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Mental Jujitsu
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by redy2fiyt
My brother's wife went to the DMV with the intent of obtaining a new driver's license - for the purpose of identification only. When she attempted to sign "All rights reserved, under duress" and then her signature, the DMV employee told her that was not her signature and that it had to be JOE K. BLOW and nothing else. Not knowing what to do, she reluctantly signed.
The UCC does not have a definition of "legal signature", instead it defines does not define a legal signature. Instead, it defines a signature on a negotiable instrument as “any name, word, mark or writing used with the intention of authenticating a document.” It further states that a signature may be handwritten, typed, printed or made in any other manner, and that a signature could appear in the body of an instrument rather than on a signature line [UCC 1-201(30)].
Understanding that the DMV is only requiring a signature on a negotiable instrument, since you are actually signing a contract, you may write whatever is necessary to authenticate the document.
Personally, if it had been me applying, I would have attempted to cite the UCC and see where I got. I'm almost certain that would get no where since the government employees behind the counter don't know about the UCC and don't care. They have the power and they will continue to exercise it, especially if you argue with them. With that in mind I probably would have walked away and made a new appointment with some one else.
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The question should have been to ask the clerk what gives him/her the authority to make such a determination of what your signature should look like. It is your signature. Then why allow someone to tell you how you sign your name?
Let's take a look at CALIFORNIA CODES
VEHICLE CODE SECTION 12800-12819
Quote:
12811. (a) (1) (A) When the department determines that the applicant is lawfully entitled to a license, it shall issue to the person a driver's license as applied for. The license shall state the class of license for which the licensee has qualified and shall contain the distinguishing number assigned to the applicant, the date
of expiration, the true full name, age, and mailing address of the licensee, a brief description and engraved picture or photograph of the licensee for the purpose of identification, and space for the signature of the licensee.
(B) Each license shall also contain a space for the endorsement of a record of each suspension or revocation thereof.
(C) The department shall use whatever process or processes, in the issuance of engraved or colored licenses, that prohibit, as near as possible, the ability to alter or reproduce the license, or prohibit the ability to superimpose a picture or photograph on the license
without ready detection.
(2) In addition to the requirements of paragraph (1), a license issued to a person under 18 years of age shall display the words "provisional until age 18."
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There are also no provisions in
CALIFORNIA CODES
COMMERCIAL CODE
SECTION 3401-3420
or
CALIFORNIA CODES
COMMERCIAL CODE
SECTION 8301-8307
or
CALIFORNIA CODES
COMMERCIAL CODE
SECTION 8101-8116
8101. This division may be cited as Uniform Commercial
Code--Investment Securities.
or
CALIFORNIA CODES
STREETS AND HIGHWAYS CODE
SECTION 1-36
If someone else can search the CA Code and find where the authority is given to a civil servant to determine what is allowed as a signature, then my hat off to you, because I can not find such a provision.
I have signed my name in a variety of names, some signatures look no better than chicken scratches and others that very clearly look like my name. Some with All Rights Reserved and others without.
In all instances, by what authority or knowledge is the other party in a position to say, "That is not your signature."?
Your brother's wife provides a good illustration of why it's important to prepare for the worst possible outcome. If you're not prepared, you can't possibly defend your rights.
Think about it...
__________________
Liberty: Freedom from restraint and the power to follow one's own will to choose a course of conduct. Liberty, like freedom, has its inherent restraint to act without harm to others and within the accepted rules of conduct for the benefit of the general public.
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09-19-2006, 09:35 PM
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Come and Get Some!
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,745
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The UCC does not apply to drivers licenses or traffic laws.
I know of no court case that suggests that you can use an unconventional signature for a DL when the DMV clearly does not approve of it.
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09-19-2006, 09:44 PM
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Come and Get Some!
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Illinois(chi-town)
Posts: 5,076
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It's don't matter, it just a plain Commerce and Contracts That 's all there is.
__________________
Resolution pending
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09-19-2006, 10:58 PM
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Come and Get Some!
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,212
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Also, you could try just signing the words, "Without Prejudice" or "All Rights Reserved" on the line instead. Just that, may look like your just signing as eveyone else.
Then when signing documents where your signature might want to be compared to your license,
if you sign the document the same way, they will match!
Last edited by ezrhythm : 09-19-2006 at 11:03 PM.
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09-19-2006, 11:33 PM
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Banned User
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Mystic hills of the Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 150
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DL Signature
I don't understand the consternation here. Where I live, you sign the DL after they give it to you, and on the back of the DL. My husband just pulled his DL out and wrote "without prejudice" after his name the other day. He did it while he was sitting in the car, not while we were at the DMV. So is there some reason this won't work for everyone?
-- Siren
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09-20-2006, 06:32 AM
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Banned User
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,866
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shoonra
The UCC does not apply to drivers licenses or traffic laws.
I know of no court case that suggests that you can use an unconventional signature for a DL when the DMV clearly does not approve of it.
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My "conventional" signature always consists of reserving my rights. Do you believe I should change my signature because some 'public servant' won't accept the way I normally sign such things? That's BS. They either accept my signature (because it is my signature) or they don't.
And it is not a "contract". It is a "waiver" of rights.
Ice |
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