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  #211  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:30 PM
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If anyne has wests law could they please do some research for me??? PLEASE!?!?!?

I need the history of article 4 sec 1 of the California constitution. As much as one can get in terms of when and how it has been amended and the legislative process that occured for each amendment, like assembly records.

Also I would like the same done on the re-enactment of the California Vehicle Code. It was Repealed and Renacted... the statute taht did it is this one...
Quote:
The California Legislature repealed the pre-1959 Vehicle Code in its entirety and re-enacted it in 1959:

An act to repeal and re-enact the Vehicle Code and to add Chapter 6.5 (commencing at Section 3067) to Title 14, Part 4, Division 3 of the Civil Code and to amend Section 11004.5 of the Revenue and Taxation Code, relating to vehicles.

Section 1:
The Vehicle Code is repealed.

Section 2:
The Vehicle Code is enacted to read:
GENERAL PROVISIONS
1. This act shall be known as the Vehicle Code.
Stats. 1959, ch. 3, p. 1523.

I need to know if it was "read" or not when it was passed and if it was not if there was a propper vote to waive the reading.


Thanks guys in advance BIG time for anyone who can help.

Email me at Codee@mail.com

Cody,
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Last edited by Codee : 11-21-2006 at 06:45 PM.
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  #212  
Old 11-21-2006, 08:38 PM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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What you want is more than can be found in WestLaw. You may have to sit down with some old-fashioned books - the California Code and the California session laws for the last fifty years - and trace the history of that section the hard way.
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  #213  
Old 11-22-2006, 12:50 AM
ezrhythm ezrhythm is offline
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Sounds like it is worth it to me!
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  #214  
Old 11-22-2006, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
What you want is more than can be found in WestLaw. You may have to sit down with some old-fashioned books - the California Code and the California session laws for the last fifty years - and trace the history of that section the hard way.

Damn.........
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  #215  
Old 11-22-2006, 11:22 AM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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I've done a good deal of research on this recondite topic today and will send my results later today.
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  #216  
Old 11-22-2006, 11:44 AM
Notorial dissent Notorial dissent is offline
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Codee,

I don’t know if this will answer your question or not, but consider.

A law comes into existence in one of the following fashions: it is introduced in either house as a proposed “bill” and goes through the routine until approved and sent to the governor for signature and becomes law, or a joint committee of both houses puts together a “joint resolution”, in effect identical bills being presented at the same time, that they then present to their respective houses for approval and is then sent to the governor, or a resolution is presented by the governor and it is processed through the houses and then sent back to the governor for signature.

You are getting hung up on semantics. A bill and a joint resolution are for all intents and purposes the same thing regardless of what they are called. If it went through all the processes to become a statute then it met the requirements. As to the actual law, you will need to check the California Reporter to see what it says about the law, and then the actual session law to see the law as it was proposed and passed. I would also check your state's annotated statutes as that will usually tell you a great deal about a particular law as well.

A Resolution, or a Sense, is just one or both houses saying that they feel a certain way about a certain subject, and usually is of no consequence. A Bill or a Joint Resolution are the same thing and serve the same purpose, to propose a law.
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  #217  
Old 11-22-2006, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorial dissent

A Resolution, or a Sense, is just one or both houses saying that they feel a certain way about a certain subject, and usually is of no consequence. A Bill or a Joint Resolution are the same thing and serve the same purpose, to propose a law.

First off thank you ND for your apparently genuine attempt to help shed some light on this situation. The feds obviously want me to think that the two are the same. The US constitution simply says that a law must go through the houses and the pres. Thus there is no requirement as to the style of the presentment being negotiated through the houses. It could be a bill or a resolution. In the states with their constitutions however there are more limiting factors. Ecpecially in California. Back in the railroad days the people put alot of stops in the Cal constitution to prevent abuse of office.

However in california ONLY a bill can become a statute AND ONLY a statute can be considered law. I posted that part of the state constitution.

Now what I need to do is find out if the laws were passsed with the propper process.

1) they originated as a bill.

2) It was read in three days.

3) It was approved by a majority of both houses.

Then AFTER that I will look into unconstitutional amendments such as "amedning by refrence."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
I've done a good deal of research on this recondite topic today and will send my results later today.

To Shoonra. Thank you for your efforts. Your talents I will not discard with the bathwater. Thank you MUCH.
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Last edited by Codee : 11-22-2006 at 01:26 PM.
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  #218  
Old 11-22-2006, 02:32 PM
Notorial dissent Notorial dissent is offline
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I’m afraid I don’t see what your problem is? You insist on hanging yourself with semantics. A joint resolution is nothing more than a bill simultaneously entered in both houses of the legislature at the same time carrying identical language in each copy. It then goes through exactly the same procedures that a regular bill originating in one house or the other would face, except that since the language is already agreed to there will be no conferencing or altering of it, and it will be passed or rejected as entered. They can call it whatever they want to internally, but legally it is still nothing more than a bill. If you check the legislative journal for the time in question you will ultimately find that that is what happened.
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  #219  
Old 11-22-2006, 05:57 PM
Shoonra Shoonra is offline
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With respect, Notorial Dissent is describing - as I also was - the Congressional practice. You were, however, confining your question (and how I wish that you had made this clear from the beginning) to the California Legislature.

The California Constitution says, in Art. IV, sec. 8(b):

Quote:
The Legislature may make no law except by statute and may enact no statute except by bill. No bill may be passed unless ......

Several other State Constitutions have virtually the same phrasing.

Evidently the California Constitution means what it says.
In Mullan v. State (1896) 114 Cal 578, 46 Pac 670, the California Supreme Court held that a resolution by the Legislature was NOT the same as a bill and, therefor, the Legislature's resolution that the plaintiff be paid for his successful lobbying work on the State's behalf in Washington could not operate to convey any money to him because it was couched as a resolution and not as a bill. Almost 90 years later, in AFL-CIO v. Eu ex rel Uhler (1984) 36 Cal.3d 687, 206 Cal.Rptr 89, 686 P2d 609 app.denied (as Uhler v. AFL-CIO) 468 US 1310, the California Supreme Court held that a proposed initiative election on a Balanced Budget proposal, which (if passed by the voters) would have the State Legislature to adopt a resolution asking the US Congress to propose an amendment to the US Constitution, was invalid because initiatives exist to adopt laws and a resolution, under the State Constitution, could not become a law.

Other States whose Constitutions contain similar terms requiring a bill to create a statute, have also held that the Legislature cannot create a statute by means of a resolution; e.g. Sancho v. Valiente & Co. (1st Cir 1937) 93 F2d 327 cert.denied (as Bonet v. Valiente & Co.) 303 US 662.

A few states, however, have been more elastic, regarding a "bill" as any draft of a proposed statute, whether phrased as a motion or as a resolution, provided it goes through the full range of procedures to become a law. California has not taken that view.

However, this restriction applies only to the California State Legislature, and does not prevent California city govts from legislating by means of resolutions; Crowe v. Boyle (1920) 184 Cal 117, 192 Pac 111. And the State Legislature may use resolutions as a means of adopting the rules for its internal governance; Cal Constitution, Art.IV, secs. 7(3) & 11; People's Advocate Inc. v. Superior Court (1986) 181 Cal.App.3d 316, 226 Cal.Rptr 640. A resolution is, or may be, adopted by a procedure more streamlined than used for bills; AFL-CIO v. Eu, op.cit. Some federal or multistate proposal may call on states to participate by means of resolutions, and in such a case the Legislature may validly use a resolution; Whitlatch v. Commonwealth Dept of Transportation (1998) 552 Penn 298, 715 A.2d 387 cert.denied 525 US 1159.

So, although the US Congress legislates by means of either bills or joint resolutions, the California Legislature can legislate only by bills. If the California Legislature is like some other state legislatures I have seen, they avoid any mistakes by using special drafting stationery that contains the correct headers and opening words for a bill.

You had asked about Mason's Manual. This was by Paul Mason, who had been for decades the legislative counsel to the Calif. Leg. He worked up this manual of legislative parliamentary procedure primarily by using court cases (not always or equally correct) and collections of precedent parliamentary rulings from other state legislatures (primarily NY and Ohio). The first edition was published by McGraw-Hill in 1952; a second edition, slightly revised circa 1960 and again around 1975, was printed and sold by the California Legislature, and after Mason's death (ca 1980) a multistate group of legislative consultants revised it further and this last edition was published by West about ten years ago. It is dense, in more ways than one, and not much help except in legislatures - with their standing committee, two chambers, and sessions lasting months at a time.
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  #220  
Old 11-22-2006, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoonra
However, this restriction applies only to the California State Legislature, and does not prevent California city govts from legislating by means of resolutions; Crowe v. Boyle (1920) 184 Cal 117, 192 Pac 111. And the State Legislature may use resolutions as a means of adopting the rules for its internal governance; Cal Constitution, Art.IV, secs. 7(3) & 11; People's Advocate Inc. v. Superior Court (1986) 181 Cal.App.3d 316, 226 Cal.Rptr 640. A resolution is, or may be, adopted by a procedure more streamlined than used for bills; AFL-CIO v. Eu, op.cit. Some federal or multistate proposal may call on states to participate by means of resolutions, and in such a case the Legislature may validly use a resolution; Whitlatch v. Commonwealth Dept of Transportation (1998) 552 Penn 298, 715 A.2d 387 cert.denied 525 US 1159.

First off THANK YOU SHOONRA. I knew you would be a big help. I have been eagerly awaiting your post.

Second - How can the legislature delegate legislative powers to the city governments? How can this be constitutional? If the legislature can turn over "LAW MAKING" powers to a city then what is preventing them from turning it over to someone else - Like Russia?

Further lets say I live in Nevada County and I am travelling through Sacramento City. I cannot vote for Sacramento County/city "legislative body." So this means that when I am travelling throughout my state I will continually be subject to laws that were created by people who DO NOT represent me nor were they a product of an election I could have participated in and my candidate lost. There is no way for me to address the Sacramento City.

Thirdly, What is it exactly that the municipalities can "legislate for?" Is it there own internal rules which have no application to me? Or are they general laws?

I think about things like... In my home town EVERYTHING was done be resolution and the resolutions did NOT create statutes. They created "ordinances." Now why cannot a municipality pass "bills?" Is it because this was a power "delegated" to the state?

Did We the People of california delegate to the legislature "Redelegation powers?" I think not.

All in all Shoonra thank you very much for your contributions. You have proved to be a valuable resourse.
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Last edited by Codee : 12-03-2006 at 08:47 PM.
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