Canceled Account vs Closed Account

[fulltitle]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE
Apparently a "closed account" is completely different from a "cancelled account".



It does seem that a closed account can be re-opened, no? Whereas, a cancelled account can be re-instated? To my knowledge a certain bank has a form for re-instating a cancelled account. And on that form it is suggested that said form not be utilized for opening an account.

Somethings to perhaps consider:



*When you go to a bank to "open" an account, are you actually opening an account that is closed? Or, are you instating an account and then opening it?

* Now apparently its true that a certain revenue or financial oriented organization maintains records for seven years. After inactivity they go poof. So perhaps accounts are closed for debits or credits for that seven year period. But should an error be detected or some litigation arise or such similar event, then the closed account might need to be tapped for adjustment or setoff. But after seven years the account woud likely be considered cancelled if there is no further activity.

" closed account is an account that no FURTHER credit may be added to, but that remains open for adjustment or setoff (black law dictionary). Adjustment: means to arrive at a NEW agreement with the CREDITOR for the payment of the debt (Blacks) - this clearly is not the issue since the debtor is not looking to settle, but merely to pay the rightful money's due. Setoff: is exclusive to the debtors right to reduce the debt by the amount of moneys owe him by the creditor: as the result of a independent claim. Furthermore, both of these refer only to a stoppage on additional credit: meaning that the original credit limit/services should still exist if the balance is paid down.In this case the creditor has actually cancelled the charge cards and regardless of payment of debt the original credit limit (nor any credit limit at all) is not in existance, or being restored. This means that there is no account, and therefore there is no contract." -A discussion on Findlaw

*If you have a closed account with -$300 in it and you give the bank $300 and the balance goes to zero, is that a credit or an adjustment? What if you wrote a check for $300 on that account and deposited in that account? Would not call for both a credit and a debit on the same account at the same time?

* instate. To establish in office; install. v. To admit formally into membership or office, as with ritual: inaugurate, induct, initiate, install, invest. See accept/reject. [www.answers.com]



* If you open an account for the first time and if you are instating or *installing* it at that time as well, when you close it are you necessarily cancelling it as well? Is an account somehow like a door such that as long as its installed it can be opened or closed? But when its closed is it such that nothing can come in or out of through the account--err I mean *door*? If it were a vault and it were closed would that mean that gold cannot be added to or removed from the? Is a closed account one where the state of the account as far as credits or debits [either should not or] cant change? Does that mean checks cannot be written? Does it mean that funds cannot be desposited?

* What if an exchange of some sort was occuring such that, the account was like umm credited and debited like say at the same time? Would such either be an adjustment or a setoff?



* When someone *sets off* a bomb are they in fact putting energy into the explosive and getting energy back from it at the same time?

[logos]

fulltitle:

You ask some very good questions, some of which I've wondered about myself. Your observation re a bomb setoff is thought provoking, and I think the analogy is apt. An account closure is not a cancellation AFAIK, but merely a change in status and thus its intended use. This is partly why some people have been able to use closed checking accounts to discharge debts, or so I hear.

Couldn't one instate a closed account? Though it sounds odd, I don't see why not if one intends to use it for setoff. A few days ago I received a letter from a CCC stating they've cancelled the past due account and that making payment will bring the account current and prevent any further collection activity. This raises questions along the lines of your post: does cancelling an account destroy it, or simply make it unavailable for use? If the former, then how can there still be a balance to pay on? Though it's implied, the letter doesn't state the account will be reinstated upon receipt of payment. I could construe the presentment as an offer to bribe the CCC not to unleash debt collectors on the hapless STRAWMAN. Methinks the account has been charged-off. Furthermore, if the account is destroyed, then it stands to reason it cannot be "reinstated" (as the word is commonly used). I'd have to establish a whole new account altogether with the CCC if the STRAWMAN is to do business with them again, don't you think? OTOH, if the account has been merely made unavailable via cancellation, and closing an account doesn't destroy it, then can an account be destroyed at all, and if so, how? It reminds me of what has been said re those closed checking accounts: they supposedly remain in the bank forever.

You really got me going, fulltitle. Thanks!
BTW, nice pics in your post.

[fulltitle]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Originally Posted by logos

An account closure is not a cancellation AFAIK, but merely a change in status and thus its intended use. This is partly why some people have been able to use closed checking accounts to discharge debts, or so I hear.

Discharge may very well be synonymous with setoff.

*adjustment - A deduction made to charge off a loss. [http://www.investorwords.com/114/adjustment.html]

*discharge - To cancel or relieve an individual of an obligation of debt. A bankruptcy court may issue an order of the court that the debts of an individual or business are absolved or do not need to be paid off.

Hmmm perhaps the act of discharging [an explosive] first requires *setting [it] off*.

Originally Posted by logos

Couldn't one instate a closed account? Though it sounds odd, I don't see why not if one intends to use it for setoff.

Interesting. But I suppose if its not canceled it wouldnt need re-instating. Ah but I get what you mean.... Could one instead of "open an account" (i.e. instate then open), merely instate an account without opening it thereby leaving it closed? Hmm I dont see why not.

Originally Posted by logos

A few days ago I received a letter from a CCC stating they've cancelled the past due account and that making payment will bring the account current and prevent any further collection activity.

The account itself is probably closed and cancelled. Which means perhaps means its 'removed to' one of the bank's ledgers. And for it to become 'current' (i.e. allowing current-cy to flow through it? , or, to put in a state tha allows it to carry current) they say that they must have 'payment' so that they may do adjustments concerning the account. Cancellation probably refers to the cancellation or termination of 'account agreement'.

[quote=logos]
...does cancelling an account destroy it, or simply make it unavailable for use? If the former, then how can there still be a balance to pay on? Though it's implied, the letter doesn't state the account will be reinstated upon receipt of payment.
[quote]

Perhaps a cancelled account is a closed and de-instated account like a door that is first closed then removed from the wall and filled in--but there remain references to-and-from the account and the bank's general ledger account. And perhaps the bank creates two ledgers for each account (i.e. one for debits and credits and a second for setoffs and adjustments). And perhaps one account is simple a bridge between the debit-credit part and the bank's ledger account.

Originally Posted by logos

I could construe the presentment as an offer to bribe the CCC not to unleash debt collectors on the hapless STRAWMAN.

Hmm it may be that the trustee-grantor is being pressured to satisfy the debts of the account/estate.

Originally Posted by logos

Methinks the account has been charged-off. Furthermore, if the account is destroyed, then it stands to reason it cannot be "reinstated" (as the word is commonly used).

If charge-off makes an account un-re-instatable and also closed then perhaps the bridging part of the account is then closed and cancelled too?

Originally Posted by logos

I'd have to establish a whole new account altogether with the CCC if the STRAWMAN is to do business with them again, don't you think?

If the charge-off made it unreinstatable and closed that might be true. Perhaps an open account *really is* a collection of accounts including a 'bank side' ledger and a 'trustee-side' ledger?

Originally Posted by logos

OTOH, if the account has been merely made unavailable via cancellation, and closing an account doesn't destroy it, then can an account be destroyed at all, and if so, how? It reminds me of what has been said re those closed checking accounts: they supposedly remain in the bank forever.

Or for seven years as they may be required to by law and/or policy.

[wirlwind]

I don't understand the closed account. I know that some have successfully used closed accounts with BOE's to discharge debts, and others have ended up in jail. How long do you have to have the account before you close it? I am afraid to try it, because I just don't know exactly what to do. Right now I have a checking account that is still open and showing a -$13,+++ balance. It still shows that I have $+++ dollars available. It has been like that for 2 months. We got a judgement against us and they levied our checking accounts (both of them). They haven't taken the money that was in them out. I tried to close the accounts and the bank said I couldn't until the debit was paid off, or it was released by the judge. then they said that I could use them again! I told them that no more would be deposited, but yet when automatic drafts for insurance and all come in, the bank deducts their fee for not having enough funds (although it shows that there are enough funds). they bounced a bunch of checks that were written before the account was levied. Can you just open an account and then close it immediately and then use it to set off? Can you use a BOE without using a closed account? If so, does anyone know how?

[logos]

wirlwind:

You can definately use a BoE without a closed account and many people have sucessfully done so. I suggest--and other more knowledgable forum members have stated as much--that you stay away from attempting to use closed accounts until you're damned sure of what you are doing.

In terms of use--especially how the "gurus" do it, the closed account seems to function as a conduit for asset funds, and thus can't have a balance of public liability funds. It's almost like oil and water: one can displace the other, but they can't mix. From what little I've heard it seems as if the energy (funds, electrons) flows in both directions through the account, possibly simultaneously.

When open, the account is for public use by the STRAWMAN to move debt energy from one part of the Matrix to another. When closed, it is used by the living soul to move asset energy from the outside (private) to the inside (public) of the Matrix. This neutralizes debt energy and thus lowers the national debt. When the acount is closed and then used for setoff, it shouldn't be reopened, AFAIK. If public funds go into the account, it will be reopened. This is what can land you in jail. You can't flip-flop from public --> private --> public. The authorities will see this as fraud, among other possible things. From what I've heard, it's better to let the bank close the account. I've heard that some people who've dabbled with this have been asked by either Secret Service or Treasury agents "what evidence do you have the account was closed?" It would be wise to have a letter from the bank's comptroller or other official stating as much.

BoE's are legal if used properly and they have been in use for hundreds of years, if not longer. I'd draft my BoE in accord with the UNCITRAL convention and make sure it couldn't be misconstrued as a domestic one. Again, don't attempt to play with closed checking accounts without being guided by someone who successfully does it. Unfortunately, those who know seem to be reluctant to share their knowledge on this.

[wirlwind]

Logos,

Thanks for the info. I knew that they have to be closed, and can never be reopened again. I didn't how they needed to be closed. At this point I am not using any kind of checking account, and probably never will again, unless it would be for offset. But it sounds like that could take years before the bank decided to close it for non-use.

[logos]

wirlwind:

As fulltitle has suggested, it may take seven years for the account to go *poof*, but in the meantime it is available for use with its closed status.

fulltitle:

Discharge may very well be synonymous with setoff.

It seems the energy flow is unidirectional with the former, bidirectional with the latter. This is about the only real difference I can think of.

[fulltitle]

Originally Posted by logos

fulltitle:It seems the energy flow is unidirectional with the former, bidirectional with the latter. This is about the only real difference I can think of.

Without Prejudice.
Such may very well be so.

[ezrhythm]

To answer these questions plus much more, (sorry, sounds like a commercial) it has been recommended to me to get Winston Shrout's material. Especially his latest DVD set from his seminar in Ft. Collins recorded last November.

I know it has a cost at $150 but I believe it is well worth it and plan to get it.

[charlesa6]

Yep!!! No doubt.