Thoughts on the system

What about asking them to prove that it is not fraudulent.& You could go through a private administrative process.& That way if court ever came around they wouldn't be able to speak because they gave up their chance.


I haven't done this yet but I plan to soon.


Later,


Sara-Jane

Originally Posted by Montana

What about asking them to prove that it is not fraudulent.& You could go through a private administrative process.& That way if court ever came around they wouldn't be able to speak because they gave up their chance.


I haven't done this yet but I plan to soon.


Later,


Sara-Jane

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Like they are really going to prove their document is not fraudulent!& You had better prove it IS fraudulent before you accuse them of having fraudulent documents, or they will take you to court for harassment.


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[Ice]

According to GAAP the ledger transactions overrule any contract because the ledger transactions demonstrate what REALLY happened.& The ledger transactions will demonstrate that the "note" was listed as a "deposit"... YOU GAVE THEM MONEY.& Now, why would you want to give them money and then pay them the same amount you already gave them via installments with interest?


If you do not understand any of the above then you have much to learn.& Hopefully the members here can assist you in gaining some valuable knowledge.


&

Originally Posted by Ice

According to GAAP the ledger transactions overrule any contract because the ledger transactions demonstrate what REALLY happened.& The ledger transactions will demonstrate that the "note" was listed as a "deposit"... YOU GAVE THEM MONEY.& Now, why would you want to give them money and then pay them the same amount you already gave them via installments with interest?


If you do not understand any of the above then you have much to learn.& Hopefully the members here can assist you in gaining some valuable knowledge.


&

Like they are really going to show you their ledger transactions.&

[Ice]

You can get the ledger transactions... but you probably wouldn't need them... even though you would make sure to bring them up as much as possible.


Your posts seem very negative. It also seems that you need to do a bit more independent study... attempt to answer some of your own questions through research.


If you have specific questions in regards to a specific situation/problem, please start a new thread.& If you have something of value to offer in regards to STRAWMANS& initial post -- then offer it up.


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There is a negative and positve side to&everything.Just because I question your posts doesn't mean they are negative.& I'm hinting that you prove what you say is true.& I don't accept what people say at face value.& You have not proven anything either:& Now you're saying you "probably" can get the ledger transactions.& You mean you are not sure?& I have listened to audios on this subject from a CPA (on our side) say that&you will never&get to see a bank's ledger, NEVER EVER.& And I'm sure Tom Schauff has never seen a bank's ledger either.

Tora,


I do not see where ICE said that one could "probably" get ledger transactions.& I saw where he said that you probably wouldn't need them.& I am going to assume that a person that is knowledgable enough to ask for them, probably won't need them because whatever it is that the person asking wants will be settled out of court without the bank ever showing their transactions.


You mentioned that Tom Schauff has probably never seen ledger transactions.& I bet you are right about that.& However, he has seen some tremendous victories just by doing his homework and studying enough to be able to ask the right questions.


We do not have rights until we assert them.& That is what this forum is about for me.& Learning how to assert my rights.& I don't need to ask anybody that is volunteering their time and knowledge on this forum to "prove" anything.& I am just thankful for their ideas so that I can continue my research through this and other means.

[Ice]

If you want someone to support a point, then ask them to support it.& You are quickly reminding me of others that I have encountered that wanted nothing but to cause "controversy".


It is very obvious to me that you need to do BASIC research.& Once you have learned the basics you may lose that negative attitude that is so present in your posts.


I suppose you believe that FOIA would not get ledger transactions?... how about a court order?& If you think you can't get the ledger transaction then support your belief with some kind of fact.


Why must I be the only one to support my position?& Maybe I should just question your posts... and have you&support why you believe what you do?


And by the way, I AM SURE... re-read my post.


And thank you Montana for pointing out Tora's obvious error in regards to my statements.


&

Originally Posted by Montana

Tora,


I do not see where ICE said that one could "probably" get ledger transactions.& I saw where he said that you probably wouldn't need them.&


Right. Sorry.& He said you "can" get the ledger transactions.& &


"You can get the ledger transactions... but you probably wouldn't need them."&


I am going to assume that a person that is knowledgable enough to ask for them, probably won't need them because whatever it is that the person asking wants will be settled out of court without the bank ever showing their transactions.


Fine,& "ask" &for the ledger transactions. If you get them, great.& ICE said you "can" get them so that's who you should believe.


You mentioned that Tom Schauff has probably never seen ledger transactions.& I bet you are right about that.& However, he has seen some tremendous victories just by doing his homework and studying enough to be able to ask the right questions.


So&do your homework.I&always want to hear the negative side before I do something because I do not like surprises.


We do not have rights until we assert them.& That is what this forum is about for me.& Learning how to assert my rights.& I don't need to ask anybody that is volunteering their time and knowledge on this forum to "prove" anything.& I am just thankful for their ideas so that I can continue my research through this and other means.

That is fine if "you" don't need proof&of what people say. If I am going to use something someone says, I want proof.& I don't like looking like a fool.&

[Jerseee]

Tora,

I can understand your feelings and they are justifiable realizing what kind of system is out there fooling folks by shifting the proof of burden onto the accused; however, if someone makes a claim against you--wouldn't you want them to prove their claim?

Or would you spend the effort to prove that they do not have a claim against you?

If you try to prove they do not have a valid claim against you; you are basically doing them a favor. You are accepting the claim and you will be providing proof that it exists.

But if you understand a little about commerce and how they create money and obligations through ledger entries and the use of negotiable instruments, you will know that when the time comes for them to prove their claim--they will not! They do not want to expose the fact that they failed to disclose to you what happened to your original contract. It became an instrument after you signed it.

Now if they had this contract and if was lawful, wouldn't they use that as proof of the debt? However, if they had the contract and did not tell you that they monetized it and issued you back the money you gave them, then they couldn't show it because they would get caught creating money and issuing credit.

I hope this helps you....