Thoughts on the system - Page 3

#21 03-01-2004, 11:46 PM

Tora,

I do not need to believe what ICE says just because he is saying it.& It is through doing "my" homework that I find all of the proof that I need in the code and case cites.&

I will not continue this thread as&all of my responses have been&answered negatively.

I would suggest that if you don't like looking like a fool, that "you" do some homework and find the all of proof that you want.& Then you can ask some specific questions about your proof and we can continue in a more friendly manner.

&

&

Jerseee · #22 03-02-2004, 01:44 AM

Let's all try to be a little more patient with folks. especially folks new to this and trying to make some sense of it. I know no one should tolerate rudeness--but speaking for myself, when a slave wants to be free and does not know how to go about it...it is the person who is already free that should help and to help them understand. Disrepect should not be accepted or tolerated but, we should understand the apprehensiveness of some folks and be the bigger person and look past insignificant, unrelated comments and focus on the ailment.

Of course some folks can never be saved due to analysis paralysis or lack of courage and belief in themselves. True, courage comes from within but, encouragement does not. My desire is for everyone to be free and let them chose their own destiny......

It is the sovereign thing to do.

thoughts...

#23 03-02-2004, 06:55 AM

Analysis Paralysis, Jerseee, you just diagnosed me man!! Create a paypal button so i can pay u for services rendered. Thats my main problem. Ive got all this knowledge and just try to analyse stuff to death. Ask ice, i routinely fill up his email box. :lol: :lol:

#24 03-02-2004, 08:02 AM

Jerseee,

Point taken,& I should not have argued.& You have an amazing gift of patience.& I have noticed&the patience throughout the forum and in your answers to several of my posts.

If I read my old posts I see how I was repetative until the theory sunk in to my brain.& You were always patienc and encouraging in your answers.

Thank you again,

Sara-Jane

Ice · #25 03-02-2004, 08:59 AM

I do not believe that Tora is here to learn anything.

I believe that Tora is here to make&attacks and cause trouble.

If other members cannot see that - I would hope that they will learn how to spot such characters in the future.

Tora has not demonstrated a true&thirst for knowledge... but has demonstrated a propensity to attack what we do here. Until such time as Tora demonstrates&a true thirst for knowledge and has a change of attitude... Ice will not attempt to assist Tora.& And Ice does not recommend that any member take any advice or suggestion of Tora's as coming from one with any knowledge.

If anyone reads this thread they will instantly know what is what and who is who.& And they will come to the same conclusion I have.

Gee... see what a good impression&Tora made?

Anyone that wants questions answered will ask the questions, and with an amount of respect.& You show no respect therefore you will get no respect.& You get what you give.& You gave attitude - I'll give it right back.

I've got more important things to do than to waste my time with someone like you.

Ice

#26 03-02-2004, 10:33 AM

[quote= Jerseee]&however, if someone makes a claim against you--wouldn't you want them to prove their claim?

Yes. 

Or would you spend the effort to prove that they do not have a claim against you?

It depends on the debt. 

If you try to prove they do not have a valid claim against you; you are basically doing them a favor. You are accepting the claim and you will be providing proof that it exists.

And&what if the debt&exists?And if you pay with a BOE you are also claiming the debt exists.You can tackle the debt&either by paying with a&BoE,&assignment of interest, or&you can get rid of the debt by asking them to prove their claim.& & 

But if you understand a little about commerce and how they create money and obligations through ledger entries and the use of negotiable instruments, you will know that when the time comes for them to prove their claim--they will not!

I understand all about commerce, how they create money, and obligations through their ledger entries. &

I hope this helps you....

DITTO

Jerseee · #27 03-02-2004, 02:06 PM

Tora,

Great, we're on the right the path--constructive dialogue.& Now it seems that you are your worst enemy--so we're going to do a little exercise of the mind...

My&first question to you that you answered was the opposite of the second question that I asked.

It is not whether the debt exists or not--it is the fraud that you are addressing.& A thing void from the beginning does not become valid due to lapse of time.

Okay, lets try to understand this.& I come to you and we sign a service contract of some sort for 5,000.00.& the contract states that you will pay me in installments every month for 5 years with interest.& Now you think you have an obligation.& Without telling you, I make the contract a negotiable instrument and get it monetized for the full value of 5,000.00.& A year later, you come to learn that i did not fully disclose the terms of the agreement.& which means that the alleged debt has traces of fraud until proven.& And the contract is void since it is unlawful.& No one can create money or credit.& so you now ask me to show documented proof that the debt exists, since i have found out that you have been paid already.I come back and say that, you know the debt is valid since you have been paying on it for a year.& this is not verification since A thing void from the beginning does not become valid due to lapse of time.

Now according to your exemption or public policy--you demand verification and you tender a good faith payment (BoE, CPN or whatever) for the entire amount at the same time.& This puts you in a position of honor.

Now, if you demand verification of the debt and at the same time you tendered a good faith payment in the total amount owed; you will either get verification or the debt has been satisified.& Either way, they cannot come back and say you owe them without proof.& And if they do come back and demand payment---simply ask for the good faith payment back and see what happens.

If they give it back, they just refused payment which obviously was received--which puts them into dishonor.& If they don't give it back then the debt has been satisified.

Is that clear to you somehow?& Remember, this is not to insult your intelligence but, from reading your posts....it does appear that you are not interested in learning this truth.& Your efforts in trying to find holes in this theory will&lead to&your undoing since it appears you are missing the point&and your efforts to try to prove something that does not exist will also hinder your success and will backfire.& The proof of burden is not on you.& Please keep in mind we're addressing the fraud, not the debt.& Until the fraud has been cleared up, this debt is allegedly owed.

hope this helps

#28 03-02-2004, 04:36 PM

"Either way, they cannot come back and say you owe them without proof.&"

It is things like this that you say that are simply not true. They can and do come back and say you owe them without proof.& It has happened to me, and& I'm not asking for help with this--I am simply telling you that it can and has happened.&And you're answer to&that was:

"And if they do come back and demand payment---simply ask for the good faith payment back and see what happens."

I didnt' have to ask for good faith payment back- they sent it back. I have handled that situation.& How would you have handled it. 

" Until the fraud has been cleared up, this debt is allegedly owed."

And&few, if any,&will ADMIT to the fraud and simply&go away.& Things are not as straightforward as you say.& 

But thanks for your post.& You don't have to teach this process to me.& I know it well.

Jerseee · #29 03-02-2004, 06:45 PM

Tora,

Glad to know that you understand the process and you're welcome. Anything I can do to help....

Now to answer your post.....

Tora, first things first....what I am telling you is true since I have had success all the time with it. In fact, my suggestions have worked for others on this forum as well. Now I know they (the creditors) can come back and say what they want to say about the alleged debt but, I do not leave the issue up to them to decide. this is why I put them on notice of the code.

They can come back and say whatever they want to--but, they can't go against the same code that they are operating under to steal from you.

You must hold them to the code just as they are trying to hold you to it. They will always reference the codes that are in their favor, that automatically work against you. Codes like Title 18, Title 26, Title 42, Title 8, Title 5 and so forth.

You must put them on notice of the code that they operate under. One of them is Title 15 (my personal favorite).

As for them sending back my tender---that can be used as evidence of their dishonor later on.

Of course they are not going to admit to fraud outright--you need to catch them with their hand in your pocket. And they will not simply go away when they know that you will concede sooner or later. That is why you notice them of the code and hold them to it. they cannot have it both ways. they cannot oppress you with the same code that they have to abide by and then ignore their own rules.

Tora, I have success with my process everytime I have used it so far. I am willing to show it to you for nothing, but if you do not want to learn it--you are free to that decision of course. My process has been working for me and from your last post, it seems that your way is not working for you that well right now, hence my offer.

So with that being said and since I don't have to teach a proven process to you....may I ask what are you looking to get from this forum?

Maybe I can introduce you to a member that could help---if you need it of course.

#30 03-02-2004, 07:56 PM

"I am willing to show it to you for nothing, but if you do not want to learn it--you are free to that decision of course. My process has been working for me and from your last post, it seems that your way is not working for you that well right now, hence my offer."

I recently used my process for parking tickets, and most recently,&for a credit card, Capital One.&Balance due $2,800.&Capital One didn't take to it very well.&I&received a letter from them&a few days ago regarding my negotiable instrument, but I cannot tell from the letter what they will do. Their words were kind of mixed.&I signed waiver of Arbitration&a few years ago which stated that I prefer&going&court to&arbitration.&Going to court is fine with me-& they did not mention the waiver of arbitration&in&the letter, only that they would continue to send me statements.& I'll have to wait and&see. 

So with that being said and since I don't have to teach a proven process to you....may I ask what are you looking to get from this forum?

I'm not particularly looking for anything right now. I may need something in the future so I'm just making notes of what's available. 

Maybe I can introduce you to a member that could help---if you need it of course.

Thank you, Jerseee. I don't need the&help right now, but I do appreciate your kind offer :P