Flawed Redemption Process - Page 2

Jerseee · #11 08-06-2004, 07:00 AM

Logos,

Haven't heard from you regarding the last post. Is everything cool?

logos · #12 08-08-2004, 01:59 AM

Jerseee:

Things are alright; I've just been busy. Thanks for the case law cites.

I understand your desire to expose the "fraud" to the light of truth, but let me ask you this: if you have remedy, where's the fraud? This is why treason charges can't be sustained against Congress for removing all the money years ago. Why contest them if you don't have to participate in their courtroom soap opera? What would you be exposing that hasn't already been exposed numerous times over (as can be found in the public record as evidenced by the numerous case law cites on this board)? The truth is there for those who are interested. What will you gain by trying to shove the truth in their faces? At best you'll waste alot of time and energy--which is just what the Dark Side wants--that could have been spent more productively settling and closing the matter. Why should you care if they charge your STRAWMAN (damn that shadowy son-of-a-gun) $10 or $10,000,000 if its no sweat off your back due to your remedy? A wise man/woman once said "use your remedy".

That's what I'm doing and I'll post more details soon. BTW, why do you guys talk as if the UCC isn't law? Hasn't it been enacted in all 50 States?

Anyhow, if we are to have a meaningful discussion of redemption we must state what we believe it to be. I don't think we've been discussing the matter with an understanding of each other's belief of what it is. I look forward to further discussion with you.

Jerseee · #13 08-08-2004, 03:19 AM

Logos,

Great rebut. Now we are getting somewhere. Let me first answer some of your questions.

if you have remedy, where's the fraud?

You want to know where is the fraud? It is everywhere. You see they know the truth but do not tell it. They (B

act as if what they say is law but they constantly ignore the truth. THis is the reason why we have to do what we do. Whether it be UCC redemption or straight up law. Hell, if they didn't ignore facts we wouldn't have to do all of this.

Why contest them if you don't have to participate in their courtroom soap opera?

Yeah, its courtroom soap opera but, those courts that they hijacked belong to the people. Those courts are the cornerstone of our constitution and the basis of most of what everyone abides by in a jural society. UCC is something new that they made up based on merchant law. It is not constitutional. We are human beings not commercial utilities.

What would you be exposing that hasn't already been exposed numerous times over (as can be found in the public record as evidenced by the numerous case law cites on this board)?

To expose the truth constantly is to hold them to the truth that they ignore and force the population to abid by codes instead of truth. So it goes back to, do you have a right to travel or is it a privilege to drive? (this type of thinking). Remember, none of this would be necessary if they used the truth.

The truth is there for those who are interested. What will you gain by trying to shove the truth in their faces?

You obviously were interested in truth so why not the whole population? Why not give people the choice to operate in commerce instead of fooling them that commerce is law? UCC is not law--its code. They are attempting to codify rights and turn them into privileges. My rights are not up for debate and my energy will not be commercialized for another's gain except my own. What I will gain by shoving the truth in their face is justice and fair play. What would you gain by accepting code in lieu of your god-given rights?

Why should you care if they charge your STRAWMAN (damn that shadowy son-of-a-gun) $10 or $10,000,000 if its no sweat off your back due to your remedy?

I wouldn't care too much if they recognized the truth when I brought up my remedy. Instead, they are forcing the use of their fiat currency at home and abroad to gain control of your labor and regulate the value of it. Yes, I constantly say to "use your remedy" but, do not get it miscontrued please. I am referencing HJR 192--not UCC remedy. One is code the other is public policy, big difference. Congress ratified one the bankers ratified the other.

BTW, why do you guys talk as if the UCC isn't law? Hasn't it been enacted in all 50 States?

Once again my friend, the UCC is code--it is not law. It is a commercial code to regulate commercial transactions. My rights are not commercial and not for sale or negotiation. When you ask for UCC redemption in a private capacity--you are basically dealing your own energy for consideration or for a "break" in their system. I don't want their blessings on my activity.

And just because all 50 states enact the UCC does not make that law or even state law for that matter. Never forget that there is a Republic side and a Coporate side to governments. It is the coporate side that enacts the code.

Anyhow, if we are to have a meaningful discussion of redemption we must state what we believe it to be. I don't think we've been discussing the matter with an understanding of each other's belief of what it is. I look forward to further discussion with you.

Logos, this is a refreshing comment and one that is long overdue. I have attempted to do such a thing so lets do that.

UCC Redemption is a commercial thing. It has nothing to do with law as we know it. Bankers do not ratify law unless they hold a public office. UCC is the code for commerce. My rights are not commercial nor do I negotiate those rights with bankers. They are attempting to reduce your rights to privileges through commerce. By tying your energy to their FRNs (which are private products), they control you and your comings and goings.

The law and the courts belong to the people and to use the UCC in court as law to govern the actions of folk is treachery. Since folks do not know that they are being treated as commercial slaves. People can feel it when they go through traffic court, family court, unlawful courts like arbitration and private deals on the side with prosecutors who skirt the law because they know they are beat.

If they operated honorably by using the laws that are already on the books, and inform the people on how to use the law to better themselves and the nation--we would not have the mess we have now.

Thanks logos for the invite on a civil discussion on this matter--if it detours into religion, I will not comment since I am speaking of law and codes--not spiritual beliefs.

what say you in defense of UCC redemption....

iamfreeru2 · #14 08-08-2004, 09:21 AM

Jerseee,

I have one question for you, then when I return later I will discuss in more depth. Do not worry I will not enter "religion" into this. Here is the question. How do you propose to give people the truth when they DO NOT WANT IT? That is any truth. People have believed a lie to be the truth since the beginning of time. If they do not want it you will not make them believe no matter how much you trie to put it in their face. Think about that. Only those that seek will find. I have more but have to leave, but will return.

iamfreeru2

Jerseee · #15 08-08-2004, 10:52 AM

iamfree,

THanks for chiming in.

To answer that, is to first ascertain what ails the person. I focus on finance since this is the root of all evil and the number cause of stress (IMHO).

I offer truth and then I show my own personal documents as proof of that truth. If the person likes what they see and hear--I go further. If they do not, I gently elborate on the lawfulness of what I do and leave them with that.

For the average person--I do not force the truth on them. But for the criminal element that knows the truth but wishes to ignore it and try to take what is not theirs--they get a face full of it, i.e. lawyers and bankers.

iamfree, it is not like I am going around and pounding people with the truth to get them to wake up. I offer them the truth and if they want more--I satisfy that hunger best I can. I believe in seek and ye shall find--but if they don't even know what to seek--they may never find. So I gently introduce them to bits of truth and then go from there.

If folks want to operate commercially only--I can introduce them to that too but, as you know I do not encourage it since I cannot offer any proof of any documented successes (whether mine or someone else's). If I had proof of UCC redemption--that would be a different matter.

I hope that answers the question for you....

iamfreeru2 · #16 08-08-2004, 12:49 PM

Jerseee,

I know of what you speak. I have done the same process with people myself. The sad fact is that the majority of people do not want the truth. I have laid plenty of documentation out for people and it makes no difference.

Finances are not the root of all evil. I love it when people make misstatements like that one. It is the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil, noit finances or money in itself. When use wisely money and finances are great tools.

It is our nature to lie, steal, and do all kinds of evil. Is it not easier to lie than tell the truth? Have we not all done these things at one time in our lives? Sometimes the truth hurts especially when we get caught in a lie and have to tell the truth.

When the law is used wisely it can be a great tool as well. I am not against using law. What is wrong wiith using the UCC? It may be code, but it is also administrative law. All the states use it and it has been enacted so that it can be used against us. It is like the IRC. Is the IRC not code that is being used against us? Why not turn the tables and use their codes against them and hold them accountable. The IRS is accountable to the UCC and I use it against them. Are not all the banks under the UCC? Why not use their law to even the playing field. The UCC is in every aspect of our lives and even the courts are ruled by it. Tell me what court will ever make a ruling against the UCC?

How many people do you know that believe the IRC is not law? Most people believe it to be law that they are required to follow. How many years have we been teaching the opposite? What is happening now with all this talk about eliminating the IRS and putting a VAT or some other sort of tax in place? Is that going to implement truth or another lie? Who is the father of lies? As I said only those that are interested in the truth will find it. You can teach, preach, or whatever you wish and nothing will change. You and others are trying to do this in your own power and as noble as that is you will fail.

I use Redemption because it is a way for us to live in the world peacefully without being a part of the world. It removes us from their sandbox because we turn it on them and remove ourselves from commerce. Commerce is their sandbox. The courts are no longer courts if the people, but courts of commerce. If there were truly a chance of regaining our courts your way I would do it, but you see you do not have the answers. I know the one who does though and I chose to follow Him.

iamfreeru2

Jerseee · #17 08-08-2004, 11:00 PM

iamfree,

Really hard for you not to bring up your spiritual beliefs huh? Well, I will tell you this...keep on doing what you are doing.

I thought you were going somewhere with my last response. I would like for you to read your last post very carefully and with an objective eye. Which came first, law or code?

Good point about money.

Well not going there this time, you enjoy the code---I'll enjoy the law.

Ice · #18 08-09-2004, 12:31 AM

What I can't grasp is how we can be enemies of the government and a conquered people under "military rule" with military courts BUT yet, still claim Sovereignty.

As a conquered people under military rule... don't you think the "rulers" would decide which "rules" you will follow? Isn't the court system a part of those rules? Or doesn't that count? And if it doesn't count, then why? All "their" other rules count... why not the courts? And how is it that a conquered people have any right to any "private remedy"? Isn't that akin to getting in good with the guards at the camp?

I'm hearing contradiction.

Yep, I'll stick with the Law also. And I will continue to behave as a Sovereign and as the ruler of our government and its institutions.

Ice

Jerseee · #19 08-09-2004, 01:31 AM

Ice,

I did not want to point out the obvious contradictions in the post. I did not even want to go into the back and forth of this all over again. Logos made a good offer to discuss the matter with an objective view and not a debate on which is better so I took logos up on it.

However, since you made that point which I tried to avoid--I am not sure that I can even answer that one. I thought conquered people were slaves and ruled by the conquerer. I know that if I make a point that someone else has to follow--I'm the ruler. But if I had to follow rules and seek favors of the Prince under his rules--then there can be no way that I am sovereign.

Now if I can bring the Prince into a court where my rules are better or equivalent to his rules then we are both sovereign since the court is established to settle matters between sovereign governments.

Ice, I'm not sure how to take this but these are not my words:

Why not use their law to even the playing field. The UCC is in every aspect of our lives and even the courts are ruled by it. Tell me what court will ever make a ruling against the UCC?

Now I know that if I bring up UCC issues in court then I just moved the court from one jurisdiction to another. Which is not in my favor since those are not my rules. I could understand it if I had a vested interest in making sure the code was on the record--but I have no vested interest in the code or their fictious remedy.

Ice, you've made another glaring point that even a child can understand.

Iamfree, since you opened the door and claim to "follow Him" I have a more endearing question for you. The following question is not a challenge or anything--but a simple question:

How can you follow 2 masters?

Let me eloborate for clarity. It appears you seek salvation through 2 masters. You seek remedy from "their law" and you seek salvation from scripture. You know that code is unpure and man-made (just like philosophy) but yet you delve into their code to seek salvation of alleged debts. You know that they are money changers--yet you deal with them by their rules. Jesus did not do that according to scripture. So how can you "follow Him" when he did not walk that path created by the money changers?

I am at a loss. There are 2 sets of scripture and you are following both. One is man made the other is god's word. Seeking remedy/salvation of alleged debts from man made scriptures can be considered blasphemy as it is seeking salvation/redemption from a false god.

This is not a challenge--just an observation of contradiction by me--I seek clarity right now from the more knowledgeable ones on what appears to be worship of something man made mixed with god's law---I thought that it was impossible to serve 2 masters.

Iamfree, Ice, Logos, SJ what say on this...

iamfreeru2 · #20 08-09-2004, 11:43 AM

Jerseee,

I do not serve two masters. They have used the UCC to eslave people and I am using it to free people. It is one thing to be under the uniform commercial code and ruled by it and another to use it to turn the tables to free yourself and others and to take control. That is not serving two masters.

Are you not using the "law" to try and free yourselves from tyranny and oppresion? What is the difference? You are using man made laws that have been placed over you to obtain freedom are you not? You use the "law," which is no law at all, as it hinges on rules and procedures. It all is predicated upon whether you follow their rules or not, correct? If you do not follow the rules you lose. Do not talk to me about following two masters. If I am following two masters what are you doing?

Like you say Jerseee, you use the law and their rules and I will use Redemption and the UCC. You see, when I use Redemption and the UCC I do not have to follow their court rules and procedures.

Quote:

Appellee's argument that the trial court was correct in admitting the copy of the note as an exception under the best evidence rule and that the Arkansas Rules of Evidence superseded the requirements of the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) was without merit

What does the above state and is from part of your previous post? Looks to me like the UCC cannot be superceded by court rules. Does this say that I am serving another master or that I have taken control when I use the UCC against them? I think by having to follow court rules you are the one following two masters.

iamfreeru2