Flawed Redemption Process

[Ice]

That is your mistake --- The law we use is based upon HIS law -- THEY ARE NOT "MAN's LAWS". Have you read the Constitution lately? Now you guys gotta get that into your heads right now. Don't ever claim that we use "man's law". Stick to the FACTS and not your "fancy". I am tired of repeating myself when it comes to your misconception in this regard. I keep hearing the same old arguments over and over and over... and our points are ignored over and over and over... but never rebutted.



I get tired of explaining that we are standing on our NATURAL rights (edowed upon us by our Creator) which are <u>guaranteed and protected</u> by the Constitution.



That is the LAW that we are using. Maybe you should take a closer look at what we are doing instead of rejecting it because we use the courts.



Our faith is strong enough that we WILL stand in the court without Fear... and demonstrate His power for His Glory for ALL to see.



Ice

[iamfreeru2]

Ice,



I know what you believe and I do not fault you. I commend you for what you are trying to do. I believe, however, that the Constitution is moot. If it isn't then why are things the way they are? We would have no problem holding our government accountable, right?



Who is winning the war? Is it not the government? Does our government not see us as slaves and they are master over us? Why is that the Churches all tell us render to Caesar? Does government really recognize the Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land? They trash it every day and get away with it. They see Statutes, codes, and treaties as the Supreme Law. If the Constitution is really recognized then why does the IRS ignore it and the courts as well?



There are many that claim what you claim and are rotting in jail. Why are they in jail? Was it because of the law? Innocent people are in jail because they did not follow the rules and procedures correctly. Did you not say this? What part of the law of the land does that deal with? What has the Consttitution got to do with that? The rules and procedures are in place for one reason so the truth will not be heard. Are court rules and procedures part of the common law?



Too much truth is detrimental to their health. Too much truth and their game is over. The Judges know this and are protecting their livelyhoods. They are taught rules and procedures under Admiralty. The courts are not courts of law any longer. They are courts of procedure and if you srew it up you lose. That is all there is to it. When you go into the court you are not seen as flesh and blood sovereign. The courts cannot see reality, only fiction. This is why I do not go into court. It matters not what you say. Do you have them recognizing you as sovereign under the law? When you can prove your claim I will listen.



By the way I know the Constitution very well and that is not the law I am speaking of.



iamfreeru2

[KaosTheory]

Iamfree,



You should check out the James Hardin videos and the Cornforth videos. They are free to download.

[Jerseee]

iamfree,



Are they money-changers? Did the money changers (bankers) make the rules you are using for free people?

Did the money-changers make the rules that you are using to free yourself as well? Did Jesus use the rules of the money-changers to free people? Did Jesus consort with such a people in order to free people?



I think not.



No matter how you slice it, spin it, or rationalize it--they are money-changers. They (according to you) wrote the rules. You are following those rules to free people--this is what you said.



Let's not talk about what we do with law. I say this because it is the only doctrine that I speak of on this thread--I do not quote scripture and law at the same time. So let's stick to what this is really about--UCC redemption convoluted with god's law. It is an abomination. It is blasphemous to serve 2 gods. I do know this much.



Now the gurus that run this are doing just that if I am not mistaken. As honorable as it sounds--Ms. Joy is doing that. Using scripture as one of the basis of UCC redemption. Abiding by 2 doctrines for salvation IS serving 2 masters. It matters not if you use the UCC against them--you are STILL using their rules to seek salvation. The UCC was created by the money-changers and you are using their rules to free people. This is what you said.



Jesus did not do this. So if Jesus did not walk in this way--why are you claiming to follow him through UCC redemption? Whom are you following? It cannot be my god. It cannot be Jesus. It cannot be the holy word. In fact, I do not think the UCC is mentioned in the bible. I do know that the bible speaks of god given rights and moeny changers.



iamfree, this is what I see--it is my opinion and not fact. If you believe in what you do is righteous--no one can take that from you. I'm glad that some are even standing up to tyranny.



But there is one fact that is not even debateable--THEY ARE MONEY CHANGERS and they wrote the rules for others to follow--which makes them sovereign--which makes those that follow those rules, theirs to command. This is fact.



I do not want to change or alter what you do or believe--but I do think you are being misled through your faith. Your love for the father is so great that you may think that seeking freedom through UCC is righteous--but the cold hard fact is--you are abiding by a horrible doctrine to seek salvation for yourself and others. A doctrine written by the money changers. And accepting those favors of the Prince, is accepting their salvation through their rules--not god's law. Shame on the Gurus for dooping the sheep to dance with wolves.



What a Good discussion.

[Ice]

If an oath to the constitution was taken then the constitution is not moot. That oath binds them to it. This is why we bring up the oath. But you go on believing that it is moot if you want to. Things are the way they are because people have not bothered to educate themselves and have not been responsible in the maintainance of their government. It is not difficult to hold our government accountable. Start with people in elected office... VOTE FOR SOMEONE ELSE.



What war? We are at war with our government? I thought we were wrestling with men that are attempting to steal the wealth from the people of this nation... by bribing elected officials. Our elected officials still see us as someone they need to convince to voter for them... so I doubt they consider us slaves. The impertinent ones that act outside of the bounds of authority granted to them must be held accountable... and that is one of the issues we need to discuss a bit more within this forum.

You think churches are immune to the bankers sweet talk? You should think about that a bit more.

Does government really recognize the Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land? I think the elected officials do recognize the Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land... even though some would like to do away with it.

If the IRS ignores the Constitution, would that explain the 1st ammendment success found at lawworks?



There are many more in jail due to redemption processes than there are for using the Law. I've also noticed that people using "redemption" arguments in court do not fair well. <font color=brown>"Innocent people are in jail because they did not follow the rules and procedures correctly. Did you not say this?" [/color] NO. I never said that innocent people were in jail because they did not follow rules and procedures correctly. I don't know why "innocent people" would be in jail. But, if you think you know of any, maybe we should get all their documents and court records and find out why they are in jail and see if we can get them out. Your second paragraph is loaded with statements that are nothing more than assumptions, personal "belief" or questions designed to lead to a point that really has no validity.



People are winning using the courts. You may think they do not see a Sovereign when you appear there ... but what do you believe you are? And therein lies the problem. If you continue to think that they view you as a "slave"... then you will behave as one when dragged before them. You will be so inhibited because of that ingrained mindset that behaving as a Sovereign will be a passing thought after the fact. And yes, they do recognize me as a Sovereign when I appear. If you want proof of claim then look at the videos and other material that we have provided and check out the successes using the courts. How do you know that all judges are at war with you? Don't you think there are judges that believe in the principles of the Constitution, have faith in god and appreciate being able to render judgment righteously? They are out there. ( I know of one that devotes his time to assisting seniors in his retirement.)



<font color=brown>"By the way I know the Constitution very well and that is not the law I am speaking of. "[/color]



Are you stating that you are not speaking of Natural Law?... you are not speaking of our Natural Rights (endowed upon us by our Creator)? That is the Law the Constitution is based on. That is the Law that the Constitution "guarantees and protects". Were you not speaking of "Gods" Law?



I am getting tired of constantly repeating the same points. These same points have not been successfully rebutted and claims are made but no proof offered to support them.



I am done with this discussion. I will no longer discuss "redemption vs. using the court" or any such thing. We have a long road ahead of us. Let us tend to business.



I wish you well.



Ice

[bfree_1966]

Ice,



There is a lot in your post that does not need responding to. I will respond and say that the Constitution is based on God's law, but it is not God's Law. God's law is the Bible and there is no error in it. The Constitution, although a great document, has flaws. God's law does not. When I am referring to the law I am not referring to the Constitution. I am referring to Admiralty when I say to you go ahead and follow the "law." That is what is being used and it is based on rules and procedures. It is NOT the common law.



When they take an oath to the Constitution, which one? Is it the organic or the corporate? Did you know that every state has 2 constitutions? One organic and one corporate? If not I think you should do a little more research.



iamfreeru2

[bfree_1966]

By the way I have multiple personalities. bfree_1966 and iamfreeru2

[weishaupt1776]

<font color=purple>[b] The Saga Continues . . .

[iamfreeru2]

I would like to make one thing clear in case BB is watching. I am not anti-goverment, but I am anti-corruption. The war I speak of is a legal one and not a violent one. I am for a peaceful solution, but we are definitely losing the legal war.



Voting is not the answer either. I do not vote for officers of the corporation. To vote one must be a US citizen, which I am not. My citizenship is not in DC.



Yes we do have some good judges that want to do what is right, but very few.



iamfreeru2

[Jerseee]

iamfree,



My position on law is with Ice as you know.



But my post has not been answered. I am not speaking of the Constitution or law. I am speaking of the practice of 2 doctrines that are obviously not in agreement with one another. ALso, I am speaking of worshiping 2 masters and using the bible in the same context with the UCC to receive redemption.



Jesus did not walk with the money changers so who are you following?



Whom do you seek redemption from?



The study and practice of 2 laws that are clearly against each other is a contradiction. One cannot receive salvation/redemption from 2 masters who are and always will be at odds.



You stated: I use Redemption because it is a way for us to live in the world peacefully without being a part of the world.



When have the money changers ever bought peace to the world through the UCC? Is this the salvation you seek by using the UCC versus god's law? If you really want to hold them accountable--show them the scripture that you follow--since that is what you follow. Do you think they will obey it when it is written in god's law?



You also stated: Sometimes the truth hurts especially when we get caught in a lie and have to tell the truth.



When the law is used wisely it can be a great tool as well. I am not against using law. What is wrong wiith using the UCC? It may be code, but it is also administrative law. All the states use it and it has been enacted so that it can be used against us. It is like the IRC. Is the IRC not code that is being used against us? Why not turn the tables and use their codes against them and hold them accountable.



Is this an admission to practicing code to get redemption? Vengence is mine saith the lord, so why are the gurus leading people to try to get salvation when you are supposed to already have it?



Want to hold them accountable to the rules they made? How can this be done since it is their rule to abuse in the first place? Hold them to your father's law. See how far that goes.



Or do you know that they will ignore god's law so you seek redemption through their law?



I have so many questions so pardon me and my zeal for a moment. But when it comes to god's name being used in vain for a sick purpose of salvation by aother means other than his way--I must ask tough questions.



Jesus never consorted with the devil to get salvation, so why are the gurus encouraging god's children to do such a thing?